Gnat Straining and the Apologist

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_subgenius
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _subgenius »

Dcharle wrote:I have had many conversations over the years with faithful believing Mormons and read several books from Mormon historians about the considerable intellectual and historical issues within Mormonism. The one consistent argument defenders of the faith ultimately entrench themselves into is that “men are not perfect” and that critics are merely “straining at gnats” when they criticize Mormon issues. I have read many complaints about the church that I agree simply do not reach the high bar needed to invalidate the church’s truth claims. So the question then becomes, what do we consider as a gnat?

Let me illustrate a few examples of what I would consider “gnat straining” arguments. President Monson’s unfortunate statement during the ribbon cutting at the city creek mall, “One, two, three—let’s go shopping!” When some rouge local leader acts outside the bounds of reason, uses poor judgment and offends someone. Or when early church leaders would publicly debate some of the finer points of doctrine such as, whether God progresses externally of not. While unfortunate, I would agree with the apologists, these types of small issues do not nullify the church’s truth claims. I would contend that when we criticize, what are clearly gnat sized human foibles that all men are subject too, we run the risk of sounding much like the hypocrites Jesus was condemning in Matthew 23:23-24.

Where the apologists get it very wrong is when they use the “straining at gnats” argument on very important, critical issues that strike at the very core of Mormonism. These issues are regarding the very foundations of the church, which speak to its credibility and clearly go well beyond gnat sized problems.

Let me illustrate just a few examples of problems that go well beyond gnat sized issues:

• The “stone-in-hat” method of translation: This clearly connects Joseph to his glass looking occultic practices and questions his credibility, especially when his 1826 arrest and examination for glass looking is also considered.
• Sexual Impropriety: From the very beginning Joseph had issues around this subject. He eloped with Emma, then soon after his marriage rumors began about inappropriate advances to Emma’s friends, then Fanny Alger, the teenage marriages, and polyandry. Again, these are serious issues that help build the picture of his credibility.
• The temple ceremony: Many Mormon’s believe that Freemasonry was passed down by Stone Masons from Solomon’s temple, hence why so much of the Mormon ceremony contains Masonry. We now know that Masonry originated in Europe sometime in the 1400’s and that it developed over time to what is was in Josephs Smiths day. When Joseph’s original temple ceremony is compared to masonry it is strikingly similar in many ways suggesting plagiarism.
• The Book of Abraham, according to apologist, is no longer a translation of the papyri (as we would use the word translation) but rather the papyri were just tools to spur inspiration.
• All the anachronisms and problems with the Book of Mormon that are far too many to list in this post.


In comparison, these, along with several other items, are clearly much greater than gnats, these are the 800lb hippopotamus, or water horse in the room!

the lack of an argument in your post is impressive.
1. It is apparent, and you admit, that your post is speculation. ("I consider" does not validate your assertions, but it is a nice loophole)
2. Your "stone-in-hat problem" - how does that condemn or absolve the Doctrine of the Church? Has not the church taught and maintained that the validity of the Book of Mormon is confirmed by the actual text and not by the means of translation? That is to say, the truth of the Book of Mormon is what confirms the Prophet, and not to say that the truth of the Prophet confirms the Book of Mormon.
3. Again, the credibility of the Prophet, the fallacy of men, etc..is not the measure of the Book of Mormon. The assertion is simple, the Book of Mormon and its associated doctrine would exist as truth and of a divine nature if one had never known any of the stories or biographies about the early church.

etc...
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_Themis
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:
Just more muddled thinking from you. You have fallen back into the ludicrous conception that Satan is more powerful than God yet again.


How would you know that he is not. You are not thinking about things you just assumed.

Your assertion is that God is incapable of correcting us and leading us to the truth no matter what Satan does.


LOLOLOLOLOL To funny considering your arguments on how God is not going to correct Joseph with the Book of Abraham which really is just a mental game you need to do to get around a mountain of evidence.

And evidence is paramount to what I'm stating.


Obviously not. See above.

There is no reason to believe in any of this stuff without it. You often try to characterize what I'm saying by stating it is actually the opposite of what I've just said.


I don't need to. You do such a good job of showing us. See above.

It isn't a very honest nor interesting approach to take when someone is trying to discuss something with you. I am certainly getting tired of your routine.


I have been honest the whole time. I speak what I think is going on. I don't suggest I am right about everything.
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_Themis
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:Funny. This is coming from someone standing against people seeking and speaking with God. I think we all know who your true master is Drifting.


I don't think he is. It's juts the few who think God has talked to them don't agree on what he is saying. You are just another one. You ask others to ask God even though many of us have spent much more time seeking God then you, yet you think God showed up when you were not even seeking God and were an atheist. Your postings do not give much confidence you really saw God.
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_Tobin
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Tobin »

Themis wrote:...
Just more misrepresentations of my positions and irresponsible statements. Discussion with you is completely pointless. I'm tired of your antics and will try to ignore you from now on.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Themis
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Themis »

kjones wrote:
Dcharle wrote:Joseph...eloped with Emma....


Emma was 21 years old and unmarried. That would be like being 26-27 today, or even older. Isaac Hale was fiercely opposed to her marriage to Joseph Smith, but she was 21 and had made up her mind. What choice did they have but to "elope"? As she said herself, "Preferring [Joseph] to any other man I knew, I consented to marry him."


And why was her father so against it?
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_Themis
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:
Themis wrote:...
Just more misrepresentations of my positions and irresponsible statements. Discussion with you is completely pointless. I'm tired of your antics and will try to ignore you from now on.


Go right ahead. As usual I at least gave examples. I never expect you to.
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_Themis
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Themis »

Lets look at it. Tobin accuses me of this

You often try to characterize what I'm saying by stating it is actually the opposite of what I've just said.


This in the same post where he states this

Your assertion is that God is incapable of correcting us and leading us to the truth no matter what Satan does.


Yet in Book of Abraham discussions he argues for the opposite, but I am the bad one for bringing up his inconsistencies. by the way I never asserted God could not correct. In fact I have argued in many instances like the Book of Abraham God would be stupid not to.
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_Themis
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote: Has not the church taught and maintained that the validity of the Book of Mormon is confirmed by the actual text and not by the means of translation? That is to say, the truth of the Book of Mormon is what confirms the Prophet, and not to say that the truth of the Prophet confirms the Book of Mormon.


And yet so many believing members can see the problem with this argument. They are the consistent ones in that they will apply it to their own beliefs as well as other belief systems.

3. Again, the credibility of the Prophet, the fallacy of men, etc..is not the measure of the Book of Mormon. The assertion is simple, the Book of Mormon and its associated doctrine would exist as truth and of a divine nature if one had never known any of the stories or biographies about the early church.

etc...


Joseph's character cannot be separated from the Book of Mormon for obvious reasons, but we can also look at the evidences for or against the Book of Mormon as well.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Tobin
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Tobin »

Themis wrote:Lets look at it. Tobin accuses me of this

You often try to characterize what I'm saying by stating it is actually the opposite of what I've just said.


This in the same post where he states this

Your assertion is that God is incapable of correcting us and leading us to the truth no matter what Satan does.


Yet in Book of Abraham discussions he argues for the opposite, but I am the bad one for bringing up his inconsistencies. by the way I never asserted God could not correct. In fact I have argued in many instances like the Book of Abraham God would be stupid not to.

The reason I'm refusing to discuss things any further with you Themis is you start bringing in other discussions about unrelated topics to what we are discussing and knowingly misstating my positions on those topics as well. You then pretend that I'm being inconsistent on the topic at hand while being openly deceitful. I believe your tactics are thoroughly rotten and underhanded and reflects your true morals.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Themis
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Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist

Post by _Themis »

Tobin wrote:The reason I'm refusing to discuss things any further with you Themis is you start bringing in other discussions about unrelated topics to what we are discussing and knowingly misstating my positions on those topics as well. You then pretend that I'm being inconsistent on the topic at hand while being openly deceitful. I believe your tactics are thoroughly rotten and underhanded and reflects your true morals.


Yet I am the one showing with evidence that you are inconsistent, but somehow I am the dishonest bad guy. I don't see why other discussions somehow can't be used to back up what I have said. I have been civil and honest with you the whole time. I don't think your inconsistencies make you a bad guy or dishonest. We can all be inconsistent at times.
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