Contradiction in the Book of Mormon?

[_jo1952]

So you reject the Bible and accept the blind guides " Joseph Smith Jr and Joseph Fielding Smith"

Mittens, do you not see that the verses you presented actually SUPPORT what Joseph Smith taught??!!!

Oh my goodness.....

Blessings,

jo

[_Mittens]

You have to be blind to think that when Peter said it wasn't about David but Jesus going to hell for three days. Better read again slowly

Acts 13:
34 “For God had promised to bring him back to life again, no more to die. This is stated in the Scripture that says, ‘I will do for you the wonderful thing I promised David.’ 35 In another Psalm he explained more fully, saying, ‘God will not let his Holy One decay.’ 36 This was not a reference to David

[_jo1952]

You have to be blind to think that when Peter said it wasn't about David but Jesus going to hell for three days. Better read again slowly

That is not the issue. We KNOW Peter wasn't talking about David. We KNOW Peter was talking about Jesus. YOU need to re-read what Joseph Smith said because what he said AGREED with Peter!!!!

27 ’You will not leave my soul in hell or let the body of your Holy Son decay.

"You will not leave my soul in hell" Here, David is speaking about himself.

"or let the body of your Holy Son decay" Here, David is speaking about Jesus.

Let us look at Psalm 51 which David wrote AFTER his affair with Bathsheba.

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Psalm 51:1-4 (KJV)

51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

If David weren't going to hell for his sin, then why was David STILL seeking forgiveness for his sin? Remember also the conversation between the Prophet Nathan and David:

2 Samuel 12:13-14 (KJV)

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away [covered] thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

Now, we can see that when Nathan told David that "thou shalt not die", he wasn't talking about physical death. We know that David died of old age; his physical body was buried and it decayed. Therefore, Nathan must have been referring to David's spirit not dying. We also know that Peter said David has never ascended into the skies. Since this was AFTER Jesus' Resurrection, then David could NOT have been one of the ones who rose from their grave when Jesus was Resurrected since he had "never ascended into the skies".

We can also see that God took David and Bathsheba's son as punishment for David's sin. David lived under the Law of Moses. God couldn't very well break His own commandment. The Law of Moses was as "eye for an eye". So God took the newborn son's life instead of David's life. The newborn son was an innocent; just like Uriah had been an innocent. David's life would not have sufficed because David was NOT an innocent.

So, if Nathan told David that he would not die (meaning that his spirit would not die), and we also are told that "The Lord also hath put away [covered] thy sin", WHAT are we to make of all of this? After all, even after being told that the Lord had put away his sin, David was still pleading for forgiveness of his sin (in Psalm 51) AND David had not ascended in the skies. Yet Nathan told David his spirit would not die!

I believe David is doing "time" in hell until the last farthing has been paid; until the demands of Justice have been met. As David also said, "you will not LEAVE my soul in hell". Once Justice has been served, David's spirit will be freed from "hell" and he will be able to ascend into the skies because God promised him that he would not die (his spirit would not die)!!!

In other words, Mercy cannot rob Justice. If the Atonement had paid off Justice, then David would not still be in hell waiting to be able to ascend into the skies. It seems that Peter understood this as well, as Peter never said that David would NEVER ascend into the skies. He said David has never ascended into the skies; i.e., "yet". Also, if David were never able to ascend into the skies, then the promise God made to David would be broken and turn God into a liar.

Blessings,

jo

[_Mittens]

One of the Key ways of understanding the Bible is to interprete the New Testamant over the Old, so the passages in Acts tell us what the understanding of the passages in the Old Testament mean. That's your Bible lession for today

[_jo1952]

To the readers, I believe that this story about David is an in-your-face lesson about the fact that "hell" is NOT permanent; it is NOT for eternity to eternity. It is only an "eternity"; i.e. for an "age" until Justice has been served and the debt is paid to the last farthing in accordance with each individual's unforgiven sin(s).

It is manifested twice in this single story! First, Christ has broken the chains and was Resurrected. We are supposed to follow Christ - and Christ has just taught a major lesson on one of the ways we will also be able to "ascend to the skies". The first way is through receiving forgiveness of our sins. The second is by doing time in hell; as is explained in the following paragraph.

Secondly, David is going to stay in hell until his debt is paid - because God has provided a way for the sinner whose sins have not been forgiven to STILL ascend to the skies. David will NOT stay in hell. David's spirit will NOT die; even though David committed an unpardonable sin. It is unpardonable because Grace and Mercy were not able to keep David out of hell. Thus, the forgiveness Jesus provided by dying for our sins cannot cover a sin which would cause Jesus to be crucified all over again. However, Justice can still be served because David is personally paying the debt; and will STILL be saved. This is why Jesus taught that the person who commits the unpardonable sin is in "danger" of eternal damnation; In other words, it is NOT a guaranty. It is just that an individual will have to pay the price; they cannot access the payment made by Christ.

Mark 3:29 (KJV)

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Isn't this verse teaching us the very same thing as the story of David?? He could not receive forgiveness through Christ's Atonement. David has to pay personally for his sin. Yet, when the price has been paid to the last farthing, David's spirit will be released from hell!!!!!

Praise God! The Bible has unlocked the mystery of "hell". It is NOT what most Christians think it is.

Blessings,

jo

[_Tobin]

Hi jo,

Again, I agree with you somewhat. If you are willing to change, I don't believe their is any amount that you can fall that you can not eventually recover from. However, since freedom of will is involved, I do not believe everyone is capable of change. For example, I do not believe Satan will ever change. I do not believe Cain will ever change. I do not believe those that are perdition (even though they can change) will ever change. It isn't in their nature. I believe that is probably true of many of those that are Telestial and Terrestial in nature too. They can attain higher degrees, but they just don't want to.

[_Mittens]

To the readers, I believe that this story about David is an in-your-face lesson about the fact that "hell" is NOT permanent; it is NOT for eternity to eternity. It is only an "eternity"; i.e. for an "age" until Justice has been served and the debt is paid to the last farthing in accordance with each individual's unforgiven sin(s).

It is manifested twice in this single story! First, Christ has broken the chains and was Resurrected. We are supposed to follow Christ - and Christ has just taught a major lesson on one of the ways we will also be able to "ascend to the skies". The first way is through receiving forgiveness of our sins. The second is by doing time in hell; as is explained in the following paragraph.

Secondly, David is going to stay in hell until his debt is paid - because God has provided a way for the sinner whose sins have not been forgiven to STILL ascend to the skies. David will NOT stay in hell. David's spirit will NOT die; even though David committed an unpardonable sin. It is unpardonable because Grace and Mercy were not able to keep David out of hell. Thus, the forgiveness Jesus provided by dying for our sins cannot cover a sin which would cause Jesus to be crucified all over again. However, Justice can still be served because David is personally paying the debt; and will STILL be saved. This is why Jesus taught that the person who commits the unpardonable sin is in "danger" of eternal damnation; In other words, it is NOT a guaranty. It is just that an individual will have to pay the price; they cannot access the payment made by Christ.

Mark 3:29 (KJV)

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Isn't this verse teaching us the very same thing as the story of David?? He could not receive forgiveness through Christ's Atonement. David has to pay personally for his sin. Yet, when the price has been paid to the last farthing, David's spirit will be released from hell!!!!!

Praise God! The Bible has unlocked the mystery of "hell". It is NOT what most Christians think it is.

Blessings,

jo

LDS Apostle John Widtsoe declared, "In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (E. & R., p. 216). Yet, the B. of M. says, "The devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell and behold others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell" (II Nephi 28:21-22). Thus, the B. of M. explains where Mormonism got its doctrine of no hell!

The B. of M. also says, "If ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:35).

What good is "baptism for the dead" for such people? James Talmage said,"Upon all who reject the word of God in this life will fall the penalties provided; but after the debt has been paid the prison doors shall be opened, and the spirits once confined in suffering, then chastened and clean shall come forth to partake of the glory provided for in their class" (A. of F., p. 148). Can the "final state of the wicked" really be a temporary prison?

The B. of M. says there is "a punishment which also was as eternal as the life of the soul" and "the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul" (Alma 42:16). And Mosiah 2:38-41 speaks of "never ending torment" and "never ending happiness." That agrees with the Bible, but not with Mormonism! For example, Talmage said:

True eternal punishment has been decreed as the lot of the wicked; but the meaning of this expression has been given by the Lord Himself; eternal punishment is God's punishment; endless punishment is God's punishment, for 'Endless' and 'Eternal' are among His names and the words are descriptive of His attributes. No soul shall be kept in prison or continued in torment beyond the time requisite to work the needed reformation and vindicate justice for which ends alone punishment is imposed (A. of F., pp. 146-147).

Elder John Morgan also said, "Eternal punishment is God's punishment: everlasting punishment is God's punishment; or in other words it is the name of the punishment God inflicts, He being eternal in his nature. Whosoever, therefore receives God's punishment, receives eternal punishment whether it is endured one hour, one day, one week, one year, or an age" (The Plan of Salvation, p. 30).

Even though LDS sometimes speak about hell or eternal punishment, they usually mean a temporary prison. In Mormonism, "eternal" punishment eventually ends, but "eternal" life is unending! Is that consistent?

[_gdemetz]

That is not inconsistent Mittens. You just don't understand Mormon Doctrine! If someone is a "son of perdition" who willfully chooses to rebel against God forever, then they will suffer forever! For those who repent and come to Christ, then once their required suffering is completed, then they can receive their appropriate reward! That is why David wrote that God would not leave HIS (David's soul) in hell, and he also wrote that NEITHER would he suffer His Holy One (Christ) to suffer corruption!
It shouldn't be a hard English comprehension problem if I stated that God would not leave MY soul in hell, should it?!?

[_gdemetz]

These things are perfectly consistent MIttens! If one chooses to never repent and be a son of perdition, then he will suffer eternally, and if one chooses to repent, he can be forgiven! That is true Mormon doctrine and not an evangelical interpretation of it!

[_jo1952]

These things are perfectly consistent MIttens! If one chooses to never repent and be a son of perdition, then he will suffer eternally, and if one chooses to repent, he can be forgiven! That is true Mormon doctrine and not an evangelical interpretation of it!

Hi GD!

Actually, this is Father's doctrine as taught by His Son, Jesus. It didn't take Joseph Smith's revelations from God to teach us this; though the knowledge of this Truth was Restored in the LDS Church with and for easier clarity. However, throughout the age of Christendom, there have been Christians who already believed in this doctrine. For those who really want to know if this has been previously and continually believed as being True, they need to do some research to find it out. If they are not willing to seek for this part of Truth through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they will need to look for evidence of it in physical history. Perhaps that will be enough to persuade them to then seek confirmation of this Truth via the Holy Spirit. OTOH, if they are not sincere in wanting to know if this was previously believed, they will do nothing more than continue to repeat as doctrine the commandments of men concerning this issue. And, they will continue to incorrectly promote it as a false teaching dreamt up by Joseph Smith.

In fact, I have found that this is pretty much the case concerning most doctrine taught in the LDS Church; i.e., that evidence can be found that the same doctrine was believed by members of the ancient church. Today, however, anti-LDS Christians claim that when evidence of members of the ancient church believing these same doctrines is presented to them, they label those ancient saints as heretics. Thus the significance of the evidence that these doctrines were ever believed is ignored. The idea that false teachers and false prophets ALWAYS having been among the members of the ancient church has nothing to do with their own beliefs. In other words, somehow, their own beliefs have never suffered from falsehood, while forgetting that even the ancient Apostles argued amongst themselves about what was correct and incorrect doctrine.

Blessings,

jo