subgenius wrote: The burden for proof is not upon me, for i am not making the claim. And the reason for my doubts were noted on the post you actually quoted from me.. As for the assumption of truth, that goes without saying, unless there is a reasonable issue to doubt that truth, which in this case there is, both by source and by poster. The fact that I have not read any refutation by Packer does not make it true and it assumes that Packer is aware of the quote. The OP is hypothetical at best and offers little by way of meaningful discussion.
Yeah, but you see, Richard Dawkins is well known for not believing in God, whereas Packer has already been on record making statements almost identical to what Quinn attributed to him. So, again, what reason do you doubt the statement, other than you don't particularly like it?
please, provide citations that are the "record" for Packer stating something that is clearly identical to the OP, in particular to this "The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting" (emphasis mine)
I do not consider Elder Packer to be "known for" claiming that the truth destroys. The context of the hearsay used in the OP is distinct and thus so should your citations be. Otherwise we must surely concede the rather well-known fact that Dawkins is a hack of an author and really does just want to sell books.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Tobin wrote:What does that have to do with whether or not God exists, we can seek him and speak with him? You seem to be missing the point that I and jo are trying to make to you.
It has nothing to do with whether or not God exists, but it has a lot to do with the church being deceitful, which, coincidentally, is what I've been discussing. So, do you have that quote yet?
A church is merely an association of members. Some of those members do good things sometimes, sometimes they do bad things. Welcome to real life. That has nothing to do with the gospel (which is true), God existence (which is true), that you can seek and speak with God (which is true), and so on. Stop pointing out people's mistakes and using that as an excuse not to seek God and do what God tells you to do.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:What does that have to do with whether or not God exists, we can seek him and speak with him? You seem to be missing the point that I and jo are trying to make to you.
Hi Tobin!
Molok isn't interested in any points which distract from his agenda. It appears he entirely missed my comment here because the very same post in which he repeated it, he accused me of not wanting to answer his question.
We are supposed to keep the two great commandments. There is much wisdom in them. By trying to ensnare the Church in any deceitful practices, even if they ARE guilty, you have also ensnared yourself. It happens that I do think they have used poor choices--but my faith in God is not affected by this knowledge. However, since others ARE affected in a very negative way, I no longer seek to harp upon the weaknesses of men in leadership positions of ANY religion with the intent of causing someone else to give up their belief system, because this can lead to the destruction of another person's faith in God.
He labeled my comments as preaching and told me to save that for someone else. Yet, isn't he preaching?
Jesus taught us that this is the point at which to just walk away.
Tobin wrote:A church is merely an association of members. Some of those members do good things sometimes, sometimes they do bad things. Welcome to real life. That has nothing to do with the gospel (which is true), God existence (which is true), that you can seek and speak with God (which is true), and so on. Stop pointing out people's mistakes and using that as an excuse not to seek God and do what God tells you to do.
This post has nothing to do with the church's failure to live up to its own standards of honesty. In case you needed a refresher on what that is:
When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
Jo, how in the world could you possibly think that what you posted answers the question of:
purposely withholding information from someone that you know would have a huge impact on their testimony is deceit, regardless of your reason for doing so. Do you not agree?
Tobin wrote:A church is merely an association of members. Some of those members do good things sometimes, sometimes they do bad things. Welcome to real life. That has nothing to do with the gospel (which is true), God existence (which is true), that you can seek and speak with God (which is true), and so on. Stop pointing out people's mistakes and using that as an excuse not to seek God and do what God tells you to do.
This post has nothing to do with the church's failure to live up to its own standards of honesty. In case you needed a refresher on what that is:
When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
Someone expressing their opinion and stating an obvious fact that a man-made organization (such as the church) will have flaws is not earth shattering. It has nothing to do with the truth however. God exists. Mormons invite all to seek and speak with God if they want to know that truth too. That is Mormonism in a nutshell.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Molok wrote:It has nothing to do with whether or not God exists, but it has a lot to do with the church being deceitful, which, coincidentally, is what I've been discussing. So, do you have that quote yet?
You seem to neglect the fact that most every church and society used the same Biblical justification for their treatment of those with dark-skin. It was not a monopoly opinion of the LDS Church but one of the greater society, whether right or wrong.
Also, i see no cause for one to claim "deceit"....perhaps you have some actual evidence you can share?
"The attitude of the Church with reference to the Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the Priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to." - George A Smith 1949
"For those who don't believe in modern revelation there is no adequate explanation. Those who do understand revelation stand by and wait until the Lord speaks...It's only a matter of time before the black achieves full status in the Church. We must believe in the justice of God. The black will achieve full status, we’re just waiting for that time." - Harold B Lee 1972
Yep, nothing seems deceitful.....
"There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.... We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.... It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year." - Bruce McConkie 1978
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Jo, I think you have a false concept of how Christians see "church". Christians do not see "the church" as an institution, the way Mormons do, but as a body of believers. As such, Christ's church is found across all Christian denominations which, with the possible exception of one, do not see themselves as having a corner on Christian truth, certainly not that truth which affects salvation. While I have no particular opinion on Packer's statement, the very nature of the "one true church" claim of Mormonism, a top down authoritarian organization as I see it, makes statements by its leaders of more critical import.
Mittens wrote:“I have a hard time with historians... because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.” - Apostle Boyd K. Packer, as related by D. Michael Quinn, “Pillars of My Faith,” talk delivered at Sunstone Symposium, Salt Lake City, August 19, 1994
We need to remember that Quinn is not quoting Packer word for word but is paraphrasing from memory what he thought Packer was saying. Quinn is not an anti-Mormon even though he is a critic, but this does not mean he is not credible. If you can show him lying on other occasions about these kind of issues then that can hurt his credibility. Molok shows a quote of Packer saying essentially the same thing Quinn says he said, so it becomes very reasonable he is bringing up a real event and that his interpretation has some accuracy of Packer's position. Packer's talk "The Mantle is far far greater then the intellect" backs up what Quinn's say quite well. What's interesting is Jo who is using her interpretation of scripture to express the same kind of views that deceiving and holding back truths that are not uplifting or may destroy faith are the right thing to do. I tend to think the evidence lends support that Quinn is telling the truth of what he thought Packer was saying.
