Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_jo1952]

The earth has had more than one foundation, not only turtles, there are:

1. buffaloes

2. Elephants

3. Others

Hi Ludwigm!

I love the turtles - the turtle statue is awesome!!!

You have made my day - again!

Love,

jo

[_Albion]

gdemetz, you appear to be saying in your last post to me that you do not sin. Is that really so?

[_gdemetz]

I didn't say that I was without sin, Albion, but I do keep the commandments. However, I often have improper thoughts as well as other weaknesses, and I, like all others, need to atonement of Christ. However, I am striving to be one of the "just made perfect" through Jesus Christ, and I plan and hope to be perfect one day.

[_Albion]

Just wanted to clarify what you were saying. gdemnetz. Good luck with becoming perfect through your own efforts.

[_gdemetz]

It's not just with my own efforts, Albion! The scriptures, once again, state "just men made perfect" (not by themselves, but by God!), and this is absolutely necessary since no imperfect or unclean thing can dwell in the celestial kingdom, as the Bible states! Those who dwell there have to be more than just pardoned; they have to be perfect!

[_jo1952]

Just wanted to clarify what you were saying. gdemnetz. Good luck with becoming perfect through your own efforts.

Albion,

This is what GD said (emphasis mine):

I didn't say that I was without sin, Albion, but I do keep the commandments. However, I often have improper thoughts as well as other weaknesses, and I, like all others, need to atonement of Christ. However, I am striving to be one of the "just made perfect" through Jesus Christ, and I plan and hope to be perfect one day.

To which you replied: Good luck with becoming perfect through your own efforts.[/quote]

Why did you change his words and purposely misrepresent what he said?

Blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

Firstly, gedemtz and I have had this conversation before so he knows what I am talking aboout. Secondly, from my perspective I did not change anything he said. What is it about "I am STRIVING to be one of the just made perfect..." that does not imply perfection through personal effort?

[_jo1952]

Firstly, gedemtz and I have had this conversation before so he knows what I am talking aboout. Secondly, from my perspective I did not change anything he said. What is it about "I am STRIVING to be one of the just made perfect..." that does not imply perfection through personal effort?

Oh Albion........

If we cannot be honest with ourselves, how can we learn to be honest about others?

You cannot truly love God if you do not love yourself. You see yourself as wretched and worthless without God. Therefore, you see others like you see yourself. If they do not agree with you, they also appear as flawed to you as you see yourself. Yet the second Great Commandment is to love others as you love yourself. As long as you cannot love yourself, you cannot keep the second great commandment. And as long as you cannot keep the second great commandment, you cannot love God.

Do you think that God takes over our free will as soon as we accept Christ? Is God the one who then makes all of our choices for us? When we continue to sin, does He force us to repent? Do you not see that we MUST participate in this process toward perfection? God does not turn us into robots. God has provided the way through His Son's voluntary act of Atonement.

Our journey is also voluntary. Just like Jesus sought help from the Father, so also do we seek for help from the Father in following Christ's example. Jesus walked and acted and taught in accordance with and through His own obedience to Father's will. Now we are to do the same. That goal is two-way; i.e., Father wants us to return to Him, and we want to return to Father. Jesus has provided the commandments which help us to reach our goal; He has provided the example for us to follow. "Following" involves movement and actions on our part.

Wow - as I was typing this I saw more clearly how we must give up ALL negative thoughts about ourselves. We struggle with our own imperfections even when we believe and have faith in God. We can only love imperfectly as long as we remain imperfect. Depending upon our ability to love ourselves, that is the extent we are able to love others. The first great commandment cannot be kept perfectly until we are able to keep the second great commandment perfectly.

Do you see that we judge others in the same way we judge ourselves? Thus, we create our own hell - God doesn't need to place us there; we do it to ourselves. Oh my.....it is all really so much simpler then we perceive it to be.

Blessings,

jo

[_Albion]

Jo, I find your post objectionable on so many levels that it is hard for me to even respond. Suffice to say that I have absolutely no doubt as to my value in the eyes of God who loved me enough to send his Son to suffer and die for me at Calvary.

[_jo1952]

Jo, I find your post objectionable on so many levels that it is hard for me to even respond. Suffice to say that I have absolutely no doubt as to my value in the eyes of God who loved me enough to send his Son to suffer and die for me at Calvary.

Albion,

Is Jesus keeping the commandments for you? Or are YOU keeping His commandments? Does Jesus do the loving of God for you? Does He do the loving of others for you? Or do YOU do the loving of God and the loving of others? Are you letting Jesus do all of the "work" for you? Hasn't He already sacrificed everything He COULD??? Now it is time for YOU to sacrifice.

Do others have the same value in God's eyes as you think He does for you? We ALL have the SAME value in God's eyes.

LOOK at what your beliefs look like!! I do not think it is truly MY comments you find so very objectionable. I think it is that you cannot reconcile your own beliefs with the questions that I ask, or the points that I make.

There is a reason we are taught by Jesus that the two great commandments ARE the two great commandments in the first place. SEE what they are saying; and then SEE how your beliefs compare with them.

You say in one moment that God loved you enough to send His Son to suffer and die for you at Calvary. Yet in the next moment YOU give yourself no value by not loving yourself enough to think you were worth His love. You manifest this every single time you doubt yourself or your abilities. You do not see in yourself what God sees in you.

Blessings,

jo