Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_gdemetz]

Apparently, it is at least part of the "process of earning it", Albion. since Christ stated that it was necessary for entering into life! It is therefore just as the Book of Mormon states; we are saved by grace after all we can do, which is also consistent with what the scriptures state about the just being made perfect so the can dwell in the celestial kingdom!

[_Drifting]

That IS funny. Frank and I are married. When have you known a husband and wife to agree on even most things? Heck, we have only been together for a short time. I am still trying to train him!!! It's going very slowly because we are both old and set in our ways.......

Blessings,

jo

Why do Mormons marry people they hardly know?

[_Drifting]

Apparently, it is at least part of the "process of earning it", Albion. since Christ stated that it was necessary for entering into life! It is therefore just as the Book of Mormon states; we are saved by grace after all we can do, which is also consistent with what the scriptures state about the just being made perfect so the can dwell in the celestial kingdom!

Wrong.
We are saved by grace alone, the Saviours sacrifice see's to that regardless of how righteous or hard working we have been.

You are referring to the Platinum membership conditions where you gain access to the Celestial Kingdom which will only contain Mormons.

[_Albion]

I think we have discussed this topic over and over and the orthodox position is implicit in my last post. As I see it, the difference between the Mormon position and that or orthodoxy is in the definition of salvation. Mormons, as I see it, argue that salvation given by God's grace through faith is essentially only resurrection. I think this argument breaks down when it is clear that everyone is resurrected through Jesus's overcoming of death regardless of any degree of faith on their part. This might leave grace but scripture is clear that grace to salvation is through faith. As gdemetz clearly showed through his quoting of the Book of Mormon, Mormon's rest on a sort of grace plus works process for something beyond mere resurrection...exalation...the earning of added on levels of glory even up to and including becoming a god, too.

Orthodoxy rejects completely this idea of multiple heavens and any kind of concept of additional earned grace. It just isn't grace if it has to be earned...but becomes earnings due. The orthodox position is that salvation is by grace through faith in God's son alone....and that salvation has been made complete in Christ because: "God made him who had no sin TO BE SIN FOR US, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 COR. 5:21) By faith we receive grace (the very fullness of which is Christ on the cross at Calvary) and are made righteous, justified and made like as if we have never sinned, becoming the righteousness of God as Paul clearly indicated. That moment we are convicted of our sinfulness and exercise our complete faith and trust in Jesus, his death and atonement for our sin, we are saved through God's perfect and amazing grace. Period. Jesus has accomplished everything necessary for our salvation which is full and eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[_Albion]

Part 2. Is this the end for the Christian believer. Certainly not. As Paul admonished believers "prove repentance by deeds". As Paul also said in Titus 3: 4-5 "...he saved us not by righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." See also Galatians 2:16.

Good works, obedience, make complete the testimony of faith and salvation that has taken place by demonstrating the reality of that faith's existence.... and it is in the process of working and being obedient to God that the believer grows and matures into a likeness of the one who redeemed them. Works demonstrate the presence of saving grace in the life of the believer....they do not earn it. This is demonstrated in Romans where Paul tells us: "Abraham put his faith in God, and that faith was counted to him as righteousness. Now if a man does a piece of work, his wages are not counted as a favor, they are payed as debt. But if without any work to his credit he simply puts his faith in him who acquits the guilty, then his faith is indeed counted as righteousness."

I think this is implicit in Paul's letter to the Galatians, a church that was following after a "different gospel" by reverting to works of the law rather than a reliance on Christ alone for salvation as preached by Paul. He was quite blunt is condemning reliance on anything but Jesus for salvation:

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached , let him be eternally condemned. As we have already said, so now I say it again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned." Gal. !:9 NIV.

And what was that gospel that Paul preached? "Now brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. BY THIS GOSPEL YOU ARE SAVED if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of FIRST IMPORTANCE ; that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that her was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..." 1 COR. 15: 1-5.

Obviously all this is meaningless if your trust is in Joseph Smith and his additions to God's word which orthodoxy rejects as "another gospel" just as Paul defined it.

[_jo1952]

.....

Hello Albion!

It is good to see that you have been searching the scriptures and feel pressed to make this presentation. Searching and studying scripture is always a good thing.

I am going to add some thoughts which you may push aside for now. Hopefully, though, some seeds will be planted which may bring forth fruit later on in your personal journey with God.

I know I have said these things before; but they are worth repeating.

Jesus told the Apostles that He had not taught them everything He knew. Why? Because they were not yet able to bear more Truth. They were also warned not to reveal everything He had taught them.

The Apostles restricted what they taught the members of the church. Why? Because the members were not yet able to bear more Truth.

As such, it is obvious that even the extra parts of Truth which Jesus HAD taught the Apostles ARE NOT RECORDED IN THE Bible. Therefore, by restricting yourself to only what IS in the Bible, you are not allowing yourself access to any additional parts of Truth. It is impossible then, to know any additional hidden parts of Truth which have to do with ANY subject in the Bible. This is why it is so important to open your mind and heart and seek for those parts of All Truth which are not yet known to you.

It is the Holy Ghost who will lead us to All Truth. Parts of All Truth will be revealed to us individually when Father tells Him to. Many of those parts of Truth also help with the proper interpretation of Scriptures as more and more layers of understanding are revealed by the Holy Ghost to our spirit.

Blessings,

jo

[_Mittens]

Eph 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are saved apart from works, it is all by God's Grace.

We are saved to do good works, it is all for God's Glory.

So the good works are not to Exalt us but to exalt God

Matthew 23:
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Luke 14:
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 18:
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

one of todays Worship songs goes with message


http://youtu.be/hbIg6MCHtHM

[_Albion]

Jo, let me state emphatically that I reject and have rejected the false additional gospel of Mormonism. The plan of salvation is plainly and fully set forth in God's word The Bible and it is done so in a way that all men can understand it. You can keep telling me all you want that when I reach your claimed level of knowledge and understanding I will come to the position you hold. I reject fully and completely that argument. Any spirit which suggests anything other than what is taught in God's word, any new or other gospel, is not by the Holy Spirit. You are fully welcome to believe as you wish just as I am. I have experienced both Mormonism and Christianity...and I find the former wanting in every regard.

[_Albion]

Mittens, thank you for the supporting echo.

[_gdemetz]

The evangelical doctrine is wrong! I realize that is what they want to believe since it is much easier, but it is not true! Yes, grace is a gift so we cannot boast, but no where is the Bible or anywhere else does it state that grace alone is enough to save! On the contrary the scriptures states "faith without works is DEAD," and is compared to someone being hungry and being told to be warmed and filled! Will that keep them from being hungry?! Of course not; no more that grace alone can save! Christ never taught that! he taught the verse you guys keep ignoring: "If thou wilt enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"! He did not state: "If thou wilt enter into life, just make a profession of faith! If I had two friends and I asked them both if they trusted in me, and they both told me yes, and I told them if they really trusted in me, then do not start their cars. One did and got blown up! Which one really trusted in me?! Which one's faith in me was dead and useless?! Which one was saved?!?!?!?