Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_gdemetz]

The evangelical doctrine is wrong! I realize that is what they want to believe since it is much easier, but it is not true! Yes, grace is a gift so we cannot boast, but no where is the Bible or anywhere else does it state that grace alone is enough to save! On the contrary the scriptures states "faith without works is DEAD," and is compared to someone being hungry and being told to be warmed and filled! Will that keep them from being hungry?! Of course not; no more that grace alone can save! Christ never taught that! he taught the verse you guys keep ignoring: "If thou wilt enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"! He did not state: "If thou wilt enter into life, just make a profession of faith! If I had two friends and I asked them both if they trusted in me, and they both told me yes, and I told them if they really trusted in me, then do not start their cars. One did and got blown up! Which one really trusted in me?! Which one's faith in me was dead and useless?! Which one was saved?!?!?!?

[_jo1952]

Jo, let me state emphatically that I reject and have rejected the false additional gospel of Mormonism. The plan of salvation is plainly and fully set forth in God's word The Bible and it is done so in a way that all men can understand it. You can keep telling me all you want that when I reach your claimed level of knowledge and understanding I will come to the position you hold. I reject fully and completely that argument. Any spirit which suggests anything other than what is taught in God's word, any new or other gospel, is not by the Holy Spirit. You are fully welcome to believe as you wish just as I am. I have experienced both Mormonism and Christianity...and I find the former wanting in every regard.

Hello Albion!

Obviously, not all men can understand it. If they could all understand it, they wouldn't be arguing over it. One would think that after 2000 years of arguing over the New Testament and some 7800 years of arguing over the Old Testament, mankind would have been able to finally come together in unity over interpreting the Bible. It is a stumbling block for mankind. God knows what He meant even if man as a whole hasn't figured it out yet.

by the way, I will remind you that I do not believe you need to be a member of ANY religious organization in order to know God, or to be saved, or to become One with Father and Christ. All I am pointing out is what IS in the Bible. It is the Bible which tells mankind that it teaches only that part of Truth which man was able to handle in the ancient church. Since it also tells us who can lead us to All Truth, I go to the Holy Ghost and seek for it. I am not content with what man has to say, or with their milk level of understanding. I want more! The Bible teaches us how to receive more; and I'm earnestly and sincerely seeking it.

You are so stuck on your anti-LDS agenda, that you cannot see what I am relating to you, which has nothing to do with ANY religious belief system. I have spent many hours trying to share with you. At this point I have nothing else to add. Be at peace on your journey.

Blessings,

jo

[_Drifting]

Jo, let me state emphatically that I reject and have rejected the false additional gospel of Mormonism. The plan of salvation is plainly and fully set forth in God's word The Bible and it is done so in a way that all men can understand it. You can keep telling me all you want that when I reach your claimed level of knowledge and understanding I will come to the position you hold. I reject fully and completely that argument. Any spirit which suggests anything other than what is taught in God's word, any new or other gospel, is not by the Holy Spirit. You are fully welcome to believe as you wish just as I am. I have experienced both Mormonism and Christianity...and I find the former wanting in every regard.

So you're saying that, unlike Jo, you don't think the ability to perform secret handshakes are going to form part of the entry criteria on the Pearly Gates security system?

[_Albion]

Well, Drifting, I do believe in the sufficiency of Christ with regard to salvation and from my position I do see many things within Mormonism that seem to lower his role in the process...water instead of wine or grape juice representing the blood shed for sinners...the handshakes you mention...the absence of Christian symbols on Mormon buildings (and in some cases occultic symbols instead) ...seemingly more and more emphasis on a Garden atonement rather than the cross...the addition of works to the all covering grace of God...Jesus as somehow a lesser God than the Father.... Just my opinion but I do ask the question of who gains exactly from that?

[_gdemetz]

You cans can pat each other on the back all you like, but you can't change the Biblical truth, and that Biblical truth stated by Christ is: "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." In other words, If one wants to be saved, then he needs to keep the commandments just as Christ stated!!! How simple!!! Even with keeping the commandments, we could still not be saved EXCEPT FOR GRACE! That is what Paul meant! Your interpretation voids the words of Christ Himself!!! If one wants to understand the scriptures properly, then he must account for ALL OF THEM!!!

[_jo1952]

You cans can pat each other on the back all you like, but you can't change the Biblical truth, and that Biblical truth stated by Christ is: "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." In other words, If one wants to be saved, then he needs to keep the commandments just as Christ stated!!! How simple!!! Even with keeping the commandments, we could still not be saved EXCEPT FOR GRACE! That is what Paul meant! Your interpretation voids the words of Christ Himself!!! If one wants to understand the scriptures properly, then he must account for ALL OF THEM!!!

Hi GD,

If one wants to understand the scriptures properly, then he must account for ALL OF THEM!!! And there lies the rub. It is not always easy to do this; much of it takes a lot of prayer and studying when we discover that an interpretation conflicts with other parts of Scripture. I still haven't figured out many of the passages in the Bible. I know that I won't until Father thinks I am ready. When I see conflict, this does not cause me to lose any faith. Instead, I just seek more diligently. When more Truth is revealed, I am able to "see" more clearly, conflict melts away, and my faith grows and deepens.

Blessings,

jo

[_Drifting]

You cans can pat each other on the back all you like, but you can't change the Biblical truth, and that Biblical truth stated by Christ is: "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." In other words, If one wants to be saved, then he needs to keep the commandments just as Christ stated!!! How simple!!! Even with keeping the commandments, we could still not be saved EXCEPT FOR GRACE! That is what Paul meant! Your interpretation voids the words of Christ Himself!!! If one wants to understand the scriptures properly, then he must account for ALL OF THEM!!!

From the Gospel Principles Manual:

The Atonement Makes It Possible for Those Who Have Faith in Christ to Be Saved from Their Sins
•Think about how the parable in this section helps us understand the Atonement. Whom do the people in the parable represent in our lives?
The Savior’s Atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death (see Articles of Faith 1:3).

We accept Christ’s Atonement by placing our faith in Him. Through this faith, we repent of our sins, are baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and obey His commandments. We become faithful disciples of Jesus Christ. We are forgiven and cleansed from sin and prepared to return and live forever with our Heavenly Father.

I guess this fundamental difference of opinion means Mormon's can't be Christians...

[_Albion]

Not quite sure exactly what gdemetz's last post has to do with the turn the thread has made but to me he does start from the position laid down by Joseph Smith and then relies on scripture which he assumes supports that position. Regardless of one's viewpoint, I believe that the discussion begins with the Bible and not the other way around. As C.S. Lewis said: "If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing in fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about."

[_Albion]

gdemetz, Jesus did indeed say: "If you want to enter into life, obey the commandments." Matthew 19:17 It was said in the context of a discussion he had with a rich young man, a ruler in another gospel, likely a member of the Sanhedrin or possibly a ruler of a synagogue. It is clear that the young man was seduced by his wealth, his love of which was greater than his faith in keeping the commandments which he clearly did out of training rather than faith. Jesus' charge to him was directed specifically at the young man's problem...his desire for wealth being greater than his desire to serve God by keeping the commandments. I have repeated over and over and over to you, gedemtz, that commandment keeping is an integral part of the life of the believer and yet you continue to suggest that it isn't. In the process, you reject countless Bible verses that clearly and positively show that salvation is entirely by grace received through faith and that works are not part of the equation. They might well be for Mormon exaltation, of that I have no doubt, but since that is not a Biblical principle it isn't even what we are talking about.

You are selective in your choice of verses, ignoring completely a subsequent verse Jesus had in this discussion with the rich young man who told Jesus: "All these (the commandments Jesus gave him) I have kept, what do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect (perfect in keeping the commandments with spiritual depth and in faith) go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth." Matthew 19: 20-22. Jesus addressed this young man at the point of his need...because he did not live the spirit of the commandments and placed his trust in his wealth he did not have life...life being the life quickened and sustained by the spirit through faith. Have you sold all your possessions, gdemetz, or does that part not apply in your interpretation of this passage? The way you read it, I think you should in order to be consistent. For my self I see it as a lesson first to the rich young man and his situation and secondly a lesson to us about where we are to place our priorities in life. None of this is inconsistent with being saved by grace through faith because works and keeping the commandments are the fruits and the demonstration of the saving grace that has been received in the believers life. It is in the doing that we mature and grow in Christ and our lives are enriched. Jesus is the very life: "I am the way, the truth and the LIFE."

[_gdemetz]

That is just a big spin which is very inadequate Albion! Christ stated plainly what needed to be done for salvation, and He did not ever say make a profession of faith in me! He stated keep the commandments! James further stresses this point by bluntly stating that faith without works is useless or dead! That false doctrine is a gross perversion of the scriptures and the truth! [non-Celestial insinuation deleted]!