The Bottom Line

[_Themis]

Gunnar, Themis isn't helping you. He's just restating the OP.

It's not helping you since you continue to ignore it.

The reason the OP is absurd is it isn't about other people's observations.

How does that make it absurd. If you have another observation that can bring light on the issue then do it, and stop skirting the issue. I think his observation is as valid as anyone's.

It is about your own observations. Other people can't attain enlightenment for you

His observation is about the fact people are getting conflicting truths from their enlightenment. Why not deal with the OP instead of some other subject.

and most people do not attain it in this lifetime (which is undoubtedly where Themis will end up).

You don't think God will show up before then to someone who you suggest is more worthy and deserving them you were when you think God showed up. This is a problem you have also ignored, and quoting the problem with Saul and Alma the younger doesn't help.

Again, if you wish to be a faithful follower and seeker of God, then do so. If not, then don't.

I think he wants to follow what is true. Why follow a God that doesn't exists.

But your reasons for not doing so has little bearing on if God is real,

His reasons have everything to do with how he may know for himself what is accurate and true. Try discussing that instead of skirting it as usual.

whether others have experienced God and know God is real, and that has further enlightened their lives. It ONLY means you have not done so. And that is all it means.

The OP is very much about how one knows they have experienced God and why others who claim the same cannot agree on who and what God/gods are. I notice you don't agree with subby and others all that much except on some very general things.

[_Tobin]

The only "elephant in the room" is in YOUR HEAD. It is a made up reason for not doing what you should and it doesn't matter in the end. Gunnar - you are going to see God eventually. You can choose to seek and speak with God now and have that blessing in your life. Or you can wait. In either event, God is real and your reasons will evaporate after you see him and speak with him.

The problem I see with that is that I am far from the only person who has ever made that same observation, and you still have not been able to come up with any justification for doubting the validity of that observation that is even the slightest bit convincing. In fact, you have inadvertently and repeatedly reinforced its validity by your own arguments, whether you realize it or not!

I have seen God as have others alive today. There are also accounts in the scriptures. But the only way you can determine that is to do it yourself.

Personally, I know there is a God and I find that very comforting. I wish you could know the peace that brings to my life and I hope you will one day experience that. But don't think for an second that just because you haven't that means everyone has not. It only means you have not and that is all it means.

[_Tobin]

...

Themis is going into spew mode. * golf clap * If you want to state something point by point and make a real argument (in a paragraph or two), please do so. I no longer have any interest in your idiotic attempts at over-analyzing every character I type.

[_malkie]

You guys!

I take some time off the board to work, have dinner with my family, and wash the dishes after dinner, and you have moved on 4 PAGES!

Anyway, just a couple of small points for subby, from page 4:

News Flash!!
Water is not necessarily wet.

Love does not necessarily conquer hatred.

Carry on guys - I need to get back to work.

Oh, another question - how did Joseph Smith know that it was God and Jesus who appeared to him in the sacred grove?

For that matter, how did he know that it was Moroni who told him about the plates?

And for Tobin. You say: "You can choose to seek and speak with God now and have that blessing in your life." The evidence is very much against you here. Many people have sought God and have not been able to speak to him, so it's clearly not a matter of the choice of the seeker.

And 3 more posts while I was writing this one - I just can't keep up with you!

[_Themis]

...

Themis is going into spew mode. * golf clap * If you want to state something point by point and make a real argument (in a paragraph or two), please do so. I no longer have any interest in your idiotic attempts at over-analyzing every character I type.

Well since we haven't seen you make a real argument(by the way asserting something is absurd is not an argument). You are just a troll trying to divert from the OP which is asking some valid questions you have no answers for. Bye Bye.

[_Tobin]

And for Tobin. You say: "You can choose to seek and speak with God now and have that blessing in your life." The evidence is very much against you here. Many people have sought God and have not been able to speak to him, so it's clearly not a matter of the choice of the seeker.

Obviously not, it is between you and God. But part of the blessing is doing what is right and seeking God and getting to know God before seeing and speaking with him. You seem to feel the journey isn't part of it and are in a hurry to get to the destination.

[_Tobin]

Themis is going into spew mode. * golf clap * If you want to state something point by point and make a real argument (in a paragraph or two), please do so. I no longer have any interest in your idiotic attempts at over-analyzing every character I type.

Well since we haven't seen you make a real argument(by the way asserting something is absurd is not an argument). You are just a troll trying to divert from the OP which is asking some valid questions you have no answers for. Bye Bye.

No Themis, you are pretending that spewing a bunch of non-sense character-by-character is a valid way to debate and discuss things. It is not. It is only spew and is a complete waste of time.

[Guest]

I have seen God as have others alive today.

CFR.

You have not established that it was God that you saw.
Nor have you identified which God you claim to have seen.

[_Themis]

No Themis, you are pretending that spewing a bunch of non-sense character-by-character is a valid way to debate and discuss things. It is not. It is only spew and is a complete waste of time.

It is valid, you just don't want to deal with the what you actually say. Don't blame others for your own garbage. You made a number of things not thought out and I responded to them as best I could. Deal with it.

[Guest]

I have seen God as have others alive today.

CFR.

You have not established that it was God that you saw.

Here is just one example of 254 million hits online.

http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Have-Seen-God/50762

Wow Drifting. Have you ever used something called the internet before? It has this interesting website called Google. You can look for things with it. You can for instance look for "have you seen God" and get over 254 million hits. Amazing. You should really try it sometime.