The Bottom Line

[_Tobin]

Funny, this is your view and you have a right to it, but it is you, Themis, Drifting and company that we are disputing with (not each other). Since that is the case, maybe it is you that is way off base.

So, you no longer dispute the validity of LittleNipper's claim that the Holy Spirit and god confirmed to him that the Book of Mormon is not true? Do you really deny that you disagree with both subgenius and LittleNipper on whether the current leadership of the LDS church is acting according to divine direction and revelation? Do you really dispute the fact that most all of the world's religions disagree with each other on what constitutes divinely revealed truth?

Gunnar, LittleNipper and I agree there is a God and you can seek answers from God. What God may or may not have told LittleNipper to believe is between him and God. The important thing is to seek the answers and seek God.

Now you want absolute answers and to be told what to believe and not believe. That isn't up to LittleNipper or me. Seek your own answers from God and make your own determinations. I'm only advocating talking with God and doing your best to seek the answers and do as God asks. You seem to feel it isn't worth it because LittleNipper and I don't agree on everything - like that is realistic. And that doesn't matter in the slightest. Who cares what LittleNipper and I think?!? What is important is what God wants you to do.

[_Gunnar]

So, you no longer dispute the validity of LittleNipper's claim that the Holy Spirit and god confirmed to him that the Book of Mormon is not true? Do you really deny that you disagree with both subgenius and LittleNipper on whether the current leadership of the LDS church is acting according to divine direction and revelation? Do you really dispute the fact that most all of the world's religions disagree with each other on what constitutes divinely revealed truth?

Gunnar, LittleNipper and I agree there is a God and you can seek answers from God. What God may or may not have told LittleNipper to believe is between him and God. The important thing is to seek the answers and seek God.

Now you want absolute answers and to be told what to believe and not believe. That isn't up to LittleNipper or me. Seek your own answers from God and make your own determinations. I'm only advocating talking with God and doing your best to seek the answers and do as God asks. You seem to feel it isn't worth it because LittleNipper and I don't agree on everything - like that is realistic. And that doesn't matter in the slightest. Who cares what LittleNipper and I think?!? What is important is what God wants you to do.

Thank you for conceding the main point of my OP! Can't you see that by admitting that you and LittleNipper got different answers from God, you have conceded the unreliability of that approach to discerning truth, which was my whole point? Now you are saying or implying that it doesn't matter in the slightest what answer we get from God, as long as we get the answer from him. Why, then, even bother to ask him in the first place, if he is that arbitrary? We might just as well choose, on our own, what to believe and be done with it! I am all for that, as long as we base our beliefs on something more substantial than what we prefer to believe or unreliable, subjective faith that is not backed up by good evidence and sound reason.

[_Tobin]

Thank you for conceding the main point of my OP! Can't you see that by admitting that you and LittleNipper got different answers from God, you have conceded the unreliability of that approach to discerning truth, which was my whole point?

I said no such thing.

Now you are saying or implying that it doesn't matter in the slightest what answer we get from God, as long as we get the answer from him.

I said that what our views were don't (and shouldn't matter). You should seek your own answers from God.

Why, then, even bother to ask him in the first place, if he is that arbitrary?

God isn't arbitrary. People are arbitrary. That is what you keep mixing up.

We might just as well choose, on our own, what to believe and be done with it! I am all for that, as long as we base our beliefs on something more substantial than what we prefer to believe or unreliable, subjective faith that is not backed up by good evidence and sound reason.

God isn't subjective. Again, you have failed again and again to understand what I'm telling you. Seek God yourself and get your own answers. I know it is hard for you to grasp what I'm telling you (given how you completely miss my points over and over again), but it really isn't that difficult.

[_Gunnar]

Again, you have failed again and again to understand what I'm telling you.

You're right, I don't begin to understand how you can still maintain that seeking answers from God via prayer is a reliable means of discerning truth in the face of the undeniable fact (which even you don't even try to deny) that you and LittleNipper get (or think you get) opposite answers from God on the same question, let alone the fact that there are so many thousands of believers who get answers that contradict both your and LittleNipper's convictions. You, like subgenius, epitomize the old maxim "none are so blind as those who will not see!"

[_jo1952]

You, like subgenius, epitomize the old maxim "none are so blind as those who will not see!"

Dearest Gunnar,

Can I share something with you which is unrelated to "religion" or "God" for a moment? My purpose for doing so is to show how mankind repeats the same types of patterns in all aspects of life. So, for a while I would like to focus on politics which can be as volatile as how man perceives God.

Currently, the USA is gripped in a political fight which each side is convinced the outcome of the upcoming election will either seal the fate of America, or can release her from the trail of doom she is on. Both sides are convinced their point of view is correct. It is dividing families, friendships, alliances, citizens, organizations, etc. All come from various financial circumstances and walks of like. One side cannot believe how blind the other side is to what is so obvious to them. Both sides have well educated individuals. One side calls the other side stupid and vice versa. Some say that the media which supports one side is being dishonest and will only show information supporting their pov; or that they will actually interfere with and change news clips to purposely deceive and keep their audiences blinded from the truth. And vice versa. Each side claims that the other side is trying to take away free choice from the other.

How can there be so much diversity about something which all of the citizens of America are experiencing at the very same time?

Both sides are praying that their side will be victorious.

Consider a high school or college football game. Aren't both sides praying to God that they will be able to win the game? Yet we know that only one side will ultimately win.

Only one horse will come in first.

Only one side will win a war (albeit there will be casualties on both sides).

Now, back to God. Without taking away anyone's free agency - which includes their thoughts, their actions, their world view, the circumstances of their birth, their education, the tradition of their parents, their current beliefs, etc., etc., how does God use the Holy Ghost to answer the questions they ask of Him? Keep in mind that man must still walk in faith; NOT in worldly evidence or any type of physical proof. In order NOT to take away anyone's free agency, God works within the bounds of where each individual is coming from; In other words, from where that man is according to his current understanding of the world and all that this entails. Then, consider that because God will NOT take away a person's free agency, how each person's personality, ego, peer pressure, etc., can influence what he has heard from the Holy Ghost. How easily man can then twist what he is hearing in order to fit his own paradigm.

Just some of one individual's thoughts to consider. I am only one of billions.

Blessings,

jo

[_LittleNipper]

Again, you have failed again and again to understand what I'm telling you.

You're right, I don't begin to understand how you can still maintain that seeking answers from God via prayer is a reliable means of discerning truth in the face of the undeniable fact (which even you don't even try to deny) that you and LittleNipper get (or think you get) opposite answers from God on the same question, let alone the fact that there are so many thousands of believers who get answers that contradict both your and LittleNipper's convictions. You, like subgenius, epitomize the old maxim "none are so blind as those who will not see!"

God has provided us with His Word. We are to study His Word and then compare what God is saying in His Word with what man tells us God is saying. One may find that the conflict is not with the Word but with one's interpretation of the Word. And one's interpretation is often clouded by what one wants to believe. God does work to mature christians; however, this always involved reading God's Word and asking God for His understanding of that Word.

[_Tobin]

Again, you have failed again and again to understand what I'm telling you.

You're right, I don't begin to understand how you can still maintain that seeking answers from God via prayer is a reliable means of discerning truth in the face of the undeniable fact (which even you don't even try to deny) that you and LittleNipper get (or think you get) opposite answers from God on the same question, let alone the fact that there are so many thousands of believers who get answers that contradict both your and LittleNipper's convictions. You, like subgenius, epitomize the old maxim "none are so blind as those who will not see!"

I didn't say seek answers from God via prayer. I said seek God - see and speak with God. When you have done that, you WILL have your answers.

And yes, you don't get me. I too was once an atheist and ex-mormon. I've had that experience so I absolutely know how mistaken you are about this subject. And don't believe for an instant that just because you haven't experienced God in a real way, that means God does not exist. He most definitely does and it is very worthwhile to seek him out. And if you aren't willing to do that, God will seek you out in time. You are going to see and speak to God eventually. I think it is better if you do it now, then wait and waste all this time doubting God and doing what you feel is right instead.

[_PrickKicker]

I didn't say seek answers from God via prayer. I said seek God - see and speak with God. When you have done that, you WILL have your answers.

And yes, you don't get me. I too was once an atheist and ex-mormon. I've had that experience so I absolutely know how mistaken you are about this subject. And don't believe for an instant that just because you haven't experienced God in a real way, that means God does not exist. He most definitely does and it is very worthwhile to seek him out. And if you aren't willing to do that, God will seek you out in time. You are going to see and speak to God eventually. I think it is better if you do it now, then wait and waste all this time doubting God and doing what you feel is right instead.

Well thanks Tobin that makes perfect sense.
How can one seek God? How can one speak to God with out Prayer?
How can one doubt God, God has never done anything or said anything... Everything man claims God has said has been delivered through natural men who are his enemies.

[Guest]

God has provided us with His Word. We are to study His Word and then compare what God is saying in His Word with what man tells us God is saying. One may find that the conflict is not with the Word but with one's interpretation of the Word. And one's interpretation is often clouded by what one wants to believe. God does work to mature christians; however, this always involved reading God's Word and asking God for His understanding of that Word.

Given the undeniable fact that there are so many mutually contradictory examples of "God's Word", there is much more than ample justification for doubting that "God has provided us with his word"--at least not in any clear and unambiguous way. And don't try to claim that He has unambiguously and clearly provided us with His word. The still undeniable fact that there are so many mutually contradictory religious belief systems, all of whose devout adherents sincerely believe themselves to be proclaiming "God's Word" devastatingly destroys the credibility of that claim! There is simply no honest or reasonable way to get around that fact!

Certainly it is true that one's convictions can be clouded by what one wants to believe, but in no field of inquiry is that more obviously true than in religion. This is due to the simple fact that when one doesn't require hard evidence and sound reason for what one believes (as religions typically do not), it is virtually inevitable that one's interpretation will be clouded by what one wants to believe. In other words, subjective faith, untempered by evidence and sound reason, is by far the most effective way to perpetuate error, once it occurs.

The only effective way to minimize error and root it out when it occurs is to honestly acquaint oneself with and consider the evidence as it becomes available, and honestly seek out and identity our own confirmation bias (if any), and how it may be distorting our perceptions. This is the process that has made science so outstandingly successful in discovering and discerning truth. This is the process that has brought us the technological marvels and advances in medicine and agricultural productivity that our modern civilization enjoys!

[_Gunnar]

Dearest Gunnar,

Can I share something with you which is unrelated to "religion" or "God" for a moment? My purpose for doing so is to show how mankind repeats the same types of patterns in all aspects of life. So, for a while I would like to focus on politics which can be as volatile as how man perceives God.

Currently, the USA is gripped in a political fight which each side is convinced the outcome of the upcoming election will either seal the fate of America, or can release her from the trail of doom she is on. Both sides are convinced their point of view is correct. It is dividing families, friendships, alliances, citizens, organizations, etc. All come from various financial circumstances and walks of like. One side cannot believe how blind the other side is to what is so obvious to them. Both sides have well educated individuals. One side calls the other side stupid and vice versa. Some say that the media which supports one side is being dishonest and will only show information supporting their pov; or that they will actually interfere with and change news clips to purposely deceive and keep their audiences blinded from the truth. And vice versa. Each side claims that the other side is trying to take away free choice from the other.

How can there be so much diversity about something which all of the citizens of America are experiencing at the very same time?

Both sides are praying that their side will be victorious.

Jo, how does any of the above even begin to invalidate the validity of the observation and conclusion stated in my OP?

Consider a high school or college football game. Aren't both sides praying to God that they will be able to win the game? Yet we know that only one side will ultimately win.

Bad example. Even if God exists, it is inappropriate for either side to pray to God that they will be able to win the game. It is a form of cheating just as inappropriate as using performance enhancing drugs, deliberately shaving points at the behest of gamblers, or deliberately incapacitating key players on the opposing side. Each side should strive to win on their own merits and strengths--not because God favored them.

Only one horse will come in first.

Irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Only one side will win a war (albeit there will be casualties on both sides).

Equally irrelevant.

Now, back to God. Without taking away anyone's free agency - which includes their thoughts, their actions, their world view, the circumstances of their birth, their education, the tradition of their parents, their current beliefs, etc., etc., how does God use the Holy Ghost to answer the questions they ask of Him?

No good! I reject the notion that giving clear, unambiguous and unmistakeable answers somehow takes away any-one's free agency. On the contrary, not to do so would show a callous disregard for the questioner's need or desire to know the truth.

Keep in mind that man must still walk in faith; NOT in worldly evidence or any type of physical proof.

Why? I cannot believe that a just and reasonable God would impose that requirement on us. On the other hand, it is very easy to see why religious charlatans who know their claims are unsupported or even contradicted by the best available evidence would claim that. In the final analysis, what else can they do if determined to profit by religious claims that they know are not true?

I think that one of the very silliest religious concepts is the Idea that God would tell us what to believe, and then deliberately withhold or obscure hard, unambiguous evidence that supports that belief in order to "test our faith." This is nothing more than an excuse made up by religious charlatans for why the available evidence does not clearly support their false claims. It is already hard enough to convince some people of the truth even when they are presented with hard, incontrovertible, supporting evidence! Why would a fair, just and sane God want to further handicap us by not permitting us to have such evidence? The idea that permitting the existence of and encouraging reliance on clear, unambiguous, hard evidence somehow denies us our "free agency" is a complete, self-serving crock promoted by those whose main intent is to deceive and bilk the gullible.

Blessings to you too, Jo. I have little doubt that you are a good person with the most honorable intentions, but I am sure that you can also see that there is no field of human endeavor that is more rife with fraud, error, and deliberate deception than religion, and no scams that are more successful or injurious than religious scams.

Gunnar