The Bottom Line

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_LittleNipper
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _LittleNipper »

Gunnar wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:God has provided us with His Word. We are to study His Word and then compare what God is saying in His Word with what man tells us God is saying. One may find that the conflict is not with the Word but with one's interpretation of the Word. And one's interpretation is often clouded by what one wants to believe. God does work to mature christians; however, this always involved reading God's Word and asking God for His understanding of that Word.

Given the undeniable fact that there are so many mutually contradictory examples of "God's Word", there is much more than ample justification for doubting that "God has provided us with his word"--at least not in any clear and unambiguous way. And don't try to claim that He has unambiguously and clearly provided us with His word. The still undeniable fact that there are so many mutually contradictory religious belief systems, all of whose devout adherents sincerely believe themselves to be proclaiming "God's Word" devastatingly destroys the credibility of that claim! There is simply no honest or reasonable way to get around that fact!

Certainly it is true that one's convictions can be clouded by what one wants to believe, but in no field of inquiry is that more obviously true than in religion. This is due to the simple fact that when one doesn't require hard evidence and sound reason for what one believes (as religions typically do not), it is virtually inevitable that one's interpretation will be clouded by what one wants to believe. In other words, subjective faith, untempered by evidence and sound reason, is by far the most effective way to perpetuate error, once it occurs.

The only effective way to minimize error and root it out when it occurs is to honestly acquaint oneself with and consider the evidence as it becomes available, and honestly identity our own confirmation, and how it may be distorting our perceptions. This is the process that has made science so outstandingly successful in discovering and discerning truth. This is the process that has brought us the technological marvels and advances in medicine and agricultural productivity that our modern civilization enjoys!

What is genuine is often copied. Those who are His sheep will recognize His voice. The truth remains consistant and unchanging.
_Drifting
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Drifting »

LittleNipper wrote:What is genuine is often copied. Those who are His sheep will recognize His voice. The truth remains consistant and unchanging.


Warren Jeffs believes he talks with God.
Do you believe he does, if not why not?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_LittleNipper
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _LittleNipper »

Drifting wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:What is genuine is often copied. Those who are His sheep will recognize His voice. The truth remains consistant and unchanging.


Warren Jeffs believes he talks with God.
Do you believe he does, if not why not?

I believe he talks at God. He is a false prophet, because what he claims God is informing him of, is moving further and further from what the Bible states. Jesus is now a Christian's Prophet, Priest , and King. Christians do not need a go-between ------ that is the job of the Lord Jesus Christ.
_Drifting
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Drifting »

LittleNipper wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Warren Jeffs believes he talks with God.
Do you believe he does, if not why not?

I believe he talks at God. He is a false prophet, because what he claims God is informing him of, is moving further and further from what the Bible states. Jesus is now a Christian's Prophet, Priest , and King. Christians do not need a go-between ------ that is the job of the Lord Jesus Christ.


How is he moving further away from God?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Themis
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Themis »

jo1952 wrote:
Can I share something with you which is unrelated to "religion" or "God" for a moment? My purpose for doing so is to show how mankind repeats the same types of patterns in all aspects of life. So, for a while I would like to focus on politics which can be as volatile as how man perceives God.

Currently, the USA is gripped in a political fight which each side is convinced the outcome of the upcoming election will either seal the fate of America, or can release her from the trail of doom she is on. Both sides are convinced their point of view is correct. It is dividing families, friendships, alliances, citizens, organizations, etc. All come from various financial circumstances and walks of like. One side cannot believe how blind the other side is to what is so obvious to them. Both sides have well educated individuals. One side calls the other side stupid and vice versa. Some say that the media which supports one side is being dishonest and will only show information supporting their pov; or that they will actually interfere with and change news clips to purposely deceive and keep their audiences blinded from the truth. And vice versa. Each side claims that the other side is trying to take away free choice from the other.

How can there be so much diversity about something which all of the citizens of America are experiencing at the very same time?

Both sides are praying that their side will be victorious.

Consider a high school or college football game. Aren't both sides praying to God that they will be able to win the game? Yet we know that only one side will ultimately win.

Only one horse will come in first.

Only one side will win a war (albeit there will be casualties on both sides).



In reality there are usually more then two sides. Wars in many cases can have multiple sides and even enemies can team up for mutual benefit. Many in the US are independent. If you go outside of the US you see many countries have multiple parties and ideas. The US is only one of a few with a first past the post system which tends to promote a two party system. People with different interests usually have to pick between two groups who will best represent their interests.

Now, back to God. Without taking away anyone's free agency - which includes their thoughts, their actions, their world view, the circumstances of their birth, their education, the tradition of their parents, their current beliefs, etc., etc., how does God use the Holy Ghost to answer the questions they ask of Him?


We have asked this of you and others and still haven't got an answer yet.

Keep in mind that man must still walk in faith; NOT in worldly evidence or any type of physical proof. In order NOT to take away anyone's free agency, God works within the bounds of where each individual is coming from; In other words, from where that man is according to his current understanding of the world and all that this entails. Then, consider that because God will NOT take away a person's free agency, how each person's personality, ego, peer pressure, etc., can influence what he has heard from the Holy Ghost.


Physical evidence does not take away anyone agency(or as you call it, free agency). In fact limiting people information does more to limit one's choices. I would bet tobin doesn't think God showing up in person is somehow going to take away his choice. You also have two stories you believe happened in which angels appeared to men trying to destroy God's church. Would they now have no agency.

How easily man can then twist what he is hearing in order to fit his own paradigm.


This just supports what the OP is saying about the so called experience with the HG. Somehow physical evidence is being poo pooed because then people would know, but then we get mixed ideas about how well we actually know when you think the HG is talking to you. In the end this argument is about faith in God's existence, not faith in God.
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_LittleNipper
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _LittleNipper »

Drifting wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:I believe he talks at God. He is a false prophet, because what he claims God is informing him of, is moving further and further from what the Bible states. Jesus is now a Christian's Prophet, Priest , and King. Christians do not need a go-between ------ that is the job of the Lord Jesus Christ.


How is he moving further away from God?

He adds & embellishes
_Drifting
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Drifting »

LittleNipper wrote:I believe he talks at God. He is a false prophet, because what he claims God is informing him of, is moving further and further from what the Bible states. Jesus is now a Christian's Prophet, Priest , and King. Christians do not need a go-between ------ that is the job of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Drifting wrote:How is he moving further away from God?

He adds & embellishes


That's called 'continuing revelation' isn't it?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_LittleNipper
_Emeritus
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _LittleNipper »

Drifting wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:I believe he talks at God. He is a false prophet, because what he claims God is informing him of, is moving further and further from what the Bible states. Jesus is now a Christian's Prophet, Priest , and King. Christians do not need a go-between ------ that is the job of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Warren Jeffs adds & embellishes


That's called 'continuing revelation' isn't it?

Continuing revelation of what , of whom? A religion? An excuse for a choosen behavior? The Messiah has been revealed as both Jesus Christ and as the Lord God. What more needs to be revealed? What exactly is greater than that?
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Drifting
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Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _Drifting »

LittleNipper wrote:Continuing revelation of what , of whom? A religion? An excuse for a choosen behavior? The Messiah has been revealed as both Jesus Christ and as the Lord God. What more needs to be revealed?


So God has nothing new to say that hasn't been said already?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_LittleNipper
_Emeritus
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: The Bottom Line

Post by _LittleNipper »

Drifting wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Continuing revelation of what , of whom? A religion? An excuse for a choosen behavior? The Messiah has been revealed as both Jesus Christ and as the Lord God. What more needs to be revealed?What exactly is greater than that?


So God has nothing new to say that hasn't been said already?

Not here. Not yet --- Christ has yet to return. Christians will see Jesus face to face ---- that revelation is yet to come.
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