The Bottom Line

[_subgenius]

And Tobin, Subgenius, et al still have not provided a sensible or persuasive answer to the question of how anyone can infallibly or even reliably determine that one's own "spiritual Insight" is more likely to be from God than a product of our own imagination, or more reliable than that of others whose "spiritual insights" conflict with ours.

This has been addressed, in many ways by many posters...your inability of unwillingness to accept the answer does nothing for anyone. You obviously have no intention on being persuaded as the issue is, in your mind, settled.

If human reasoning and judgement were truly infallible, we would never need to ask God about anything,

your first new error (old errors have been previously noted, found not to be to your liking, so dismissed) - You propose that God's response requires human judgment for discernment....not accurate nor have you provided proof that this is the case.
In the USA we tend to understand that some things are "self-evident". This means that they defy, or supersede, "judgment". When God is manifest upon a person, there is no decision to be made about whether it is or is not. Yes, it really is that simple, just as many things in life are.

Unless our convictions have something else going for them besides the mere claim or belief that God told us so, it is both unreasonable and dishonest to conclude that they must be correct!

Then obviously your time here is done....what possible reason would you offer that would justify you to remain?

[_jo1952]

Howdy all , I didn't read much past the first few pages ... but this post of Jo's struck me.

Since the OP was about reliable methods , I would submit this method by Jo is probably the most reliable.
Based on we see it mentioned time and time again for a means in past cultures. Most recently , the American Indian.

Gosh, thanks Mktavish! You humble me.

First ... Do you think "Faith" is a verb or a noun ? This is the crux of the difference I think. Either your active in it , or you sit over there condeming it as a plauge. But also you can have "Faith" in negative things , and that's the direction you steer your world.

I would say faith is a verb.

Faith is the very energy we eminate from our being\Mind\body\soul .... what ever you want to call it. Its what defines wether the glass is half full or half empty. Sure life comes along and does its thing , but we are always incontroll of how we react to it ... the very essence of "Faith"
And THAT , has a lot of power on the out come (if you hadn't noticed)

Good points.

Blessings,

jo

[Guest]

Tobin is unfortunately very judgmental. He doesn't see that others see him coming off as hypocritical for giving advice he was never willing to do, and then assume since you are not a believer now that you never sought God.

Sadly, but obviously true.

Gunnar,

Please point out how, in my statements, I am being hypocritical in the slightest. That should be easy to provide a quote and an example if it is true. Otherwise, I'll stand by my assertion that those that state they "tried" to find God and quit had no dedication to start with. As far as I am concerned, it is simply another baseless attack by Themis and unfounded as are practically all of his statements.

[_Gunnar]

Since the OP was about reliable methods , I would submit this method by Jo is probably the most reliable.
Based on we see it mentioned time and time again for a means in past cultures. Most recently , the American Indian.

I think what your really asking is "Can we all agree on the God subject" And ofcourse the awnser is f*** off and hell no you philanthropissonamass. Cheeze and Rice , don't even ask such stupidity.

But lets start with the action of "Faith" and see if we can agree on that.

First ... Do you think "Faith" is a verb or a noun ? This is the crux of the difference I think. Either your active in it , or you sit over there condeming it as a plauge. But also you can have "Faith" in negative things , and that's the direction you steer your world.

Faith is the very energy we eminate from our being\Mind\body\soul .... what ever you want to call it. Its what defines wether the glass is half full or half empty. Sure life comes along and does its thing , but we are always incontroll of how we react to it ... the very essence of "Faith"
And THAT , has a lot of power on the out come (if you hadn't noticed)

Hi Mktavish!

Just as you were struck by Jo's post, I was struck by your comments on faith in answer to her post.

I don't deny that faith has any utility. There is no doubt faith can be a powerful motivator for either good or ill, depending on what one has faith in. Faith is what motivates us to act on our convictions, whether good or evil. Without faith, it is unlikely that we would ever accomplish anything significant, whether good or bad. Paul said "faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for." I can go along with the ". . .the substance of things hoped for" part, but I can't agree that faith, in itself, is valid evidence of anything or an acceptable substitute for evidence, though it can be a valid product of evidence or a motivator to seek out and try to understand relevant evidence. Faith without evidence can potentially blind us to what is really true, and thus lead to and perpetuate error.

[_Drifting]

The Apostle Paul taught that “faith is the substance [assurance] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). Alma made a similar statement: “If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true” (Alma 32:21). Faith is a principle of action and power. Whenever we work toward a worthy goal, we exercise faith. We show our hope for something that we cannot yet see.

Faith (particularly Mormon faith) seems to be repeating actions, rituals and behaviours in the expectation of either achieving different results from the last time, or exaltation in the next life for trying.

[_jo1952]

Hi Mktavish!

Just as you were struck by Jo's post, I was struck by your comments on faith in answer to her post.

I don't deny that faith has any utility. There is no doubt faith can be a powerful motivator for either good or ill, depending on what one has faith in. Faith is what motivates us to act on our convictions, whether good or evil. Without faith, it is unlikely that we would ever accomplish anything significant, whether good or bad. Paul said "faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for." I can go along with the ". . .the substance of things hoped for" part, but I can't agree that faith, in itself, is valid evidence of anything or an acceptable substitute for evidence, though it can be a valid product of evidence or a motivator to seek out and try to understand relevant evidence. Faith without evidence can potentially blind us to what is really true, and thus lead to and perpetuate error.

Hello Gunnar!

I believe that when we are looking for physical and worldly evidences concerning the physical realm your approach to faith pretty much needs to be used in the way you describe. However, when considering faith in connection with the spiritual realm, we cannot use those same boundaries. Inasmuch as the spiritual realm is not visible to the naked human eye, where exactly are we going to be able to find physical evidence to support our faith in the supernatural? I believe trying to find physical evidence to support the spiritual world before you have placed faith in that unseen world, is putting the cart before the horse. For instance, until a person believes in Christ, the Bible is merely another book. Once he believes, the words in the Bible are recognized as being of God. The Bible then becomes an evidence for the spiritual realm. Yet the most viable evidence that the spiritual realm exists is when we receive Spirit to spirit communication.

I think people tend to think just because they are a believer, and they attach themselves to a belief system, they believe that it is the Holy Ghost who has taught them those beliefs. They are, in fact, just puppeting what man is telling them. Unless they have received a personal experiencing of the Holy Ghost, they will not know that there is a difference.

Does the following make sense to you? There are Christians who believe the Holy Ghost's work is done; that His work was completed by leading the ancient Apostles to the All Truth which Jesus was talking about which the Comforter would do. However, then they will claim that the Holy Ghost told them Joseph Smith was not a True Prophet; or they will claim the Holy Ghost told them the Book of Mormon was not True. Now, since they have already stated that the work of the Holy Ghost was finished with the ancient Apostles, how can they claim that it was the Holy Ghost who personally told them anything; let alone specifically about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. Their claims just don't make sense. Here I will plead the Chewbacca Defense!!

Many blessings!

jo

[_Gunnar]

And Tobin, Subgenius, et al still have not provided a sensible or persuasive answer to the question of how anyone can infallibly or even reliably determine that one's own "spiritual Insight" is more likely to be from God than a product of our own imagination, or more reliable than that of others whose "spiritual insights" conflict with ours.

This has been addressed, in many ways by many posters...your inability of unwillingness to accept the answer does nothing for anyone. You obviously have no intention on being persuaded as the issue is, in your mind, settled.

I have seen your attempts to answer that question. I said a "sensible" or "persuasive" answer. If you still believe you have provided such, you are seriously deluded!

your first new error (old errors have been previously noted, found not to be to your liking, so dismissed) - You propose that God's response requires human judgment for discernment....not accurate nor have you provided proof that this is the case.
In the USA we tend to understand that some things are "self-evident". This means that they defy, or supersede, "judgment". When God is manifest upon a person, there is no decision to be made about whether it is or is not. Yes, it really is that simple, just as many things in life are.

Abject nonsense! Of course each person receiving some kind of prompting has to "decide" whether that prompting is really from God or not. What is "self evident" is that the vast majority of people who believe they got such promptings decided wrong!

Unless our convictions have something else going for them besides the mere claim or belief that God told us so, it is both unreasonable and dishonest to conclude that they must be correct!

Then obviously your time here is done....what possible reason would you offer that would justify you to remain?

Perhaps you are right. Debating with you is like trying to argue with a flat-earther!

[_Gunnar]

The Apostle Paul taught that “faith is the substance [assurance] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). Alma made a similar statement: “If ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true” (Alma 32:21). Faith is a principle of action and power. Whenever we work toward a worthy goal, we exercise faith. We show our hope for something that we cannot yet see.

Faith (particularly Mormon faith) seems to be repeating actions, rituals and behaviours in the expectation of either achieving different results from the last time, or exaltation in the next life for trying.

I agree!

[_subgenius]

Abject nonsense! Of course each person receiving some kind of prompting has to "decide"

CFR
this is obviously just what "you figger is right". Please, provide reasoning or evidence...neither of which are foreign to you, just practically and often elusive.
Your proclamation here is nothing more than an affirmation to myself and others that you are without the experience to offer the criticism that you offer. You have exposed yourself as being as a Beti-Pahuin criticizing an Eskimo's igloo.
In other words, it is abundantly clear that you know not of what you speak.

Then obviously your time here is done....what possible reason would you offer that would justify you to remain?

Perhaps you are right. Debating with you is like trying to argue with a flat-earther!

and yet you are still here....i accept your concession.

[_Themis]

It is mankind who makes the determination of what matters to mankind. That is man's doing; not God's. It is not important to Him whether a person in the flesh has things mixed up. He is concerned about our spirit; it is our spirit He loves. The physical body is a temporary shell for our spirit. You are speaking at a temporal level; I am speaking at a spiritual level.

That is your belief. by the way it is not an LDS belief. Our beliefs can matter because they can affect how we interact with the world we perceive. The more incorrect our belief are the bigger the potential for negative consequences.

LittleNipper does not know what I believe until I tell him what I believe. He and I have just recently begun to communicate with each other; whereas you and I already know where we stand on the issue of the flood.

No one is forcing you to change any beliefs. It's just a little hypocritical that some how it's wrong for me to express why I think a certain belief is wrong, but not you.

This does not mean that I will not discuss my beliefs about what the Holy Ghost has revealed to me - which includes interpretations of scripture which do not agree with others. However, once I have been through the exercise of presenting what I believe along with the scriptures to support it, I try not to get into discussions that will drag on ad nauseum by repeating over and over again what I have already presented. I am happy to explain my beliefs to a poster. If a different poster comes along discussing the same subject, I will engage that person as well. I try to avoid bringing up the same issues with the same posters, though. I admit I will still get sucked into a discussion with the same poster; but I really am trying to avoid doing that.

I don't have a problem with people expressing what they believe, but I see no problem trying to get them to back up their position. This doesn't really happen with topics like a global flood or how one knows their spiritual experiences are communication with God. by the way their is a good discussion in the terrestrial in which a TBM Gordon is being more open and honest about it then I have seen from most posters.