Albion wrote:So, if the Mormon temple endowment is "dressed up in freemasonry" by Joseph Smith can it still be claimed as a necessary part of "Christian" faith and a have a legitimate God inspired purpose? What is its purpose if this is true?
Of course there is. The temple (or holy place) has been and is a very important part of the worship of God. And before there were buildings, men of God would go to the mountain tops to be "endowed" by God. The Bible is very clear on this. Now, what is and is not an essential part of being endowed by God is an entirely different question.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
My friend, there is no need (in fact you shouldn't) to accept Anti-mormon negative premiss's and assumptions concerning the Church. There are in fact better arguments, better reasoning and factual information on every issue concerning the Church.
In other words, we don't need to try and "please" them, by saying things like "oh, we could maybe get rid of some things", etc. There is nothing wrong with the Temple Endowment or our Worship thereof.
This kind of thing drives me nuts when I hear faithful LDS say them. Even Scott Gordon did the same when he represented FAIR at some recent UVU panel presentation with two non-LDS on the panel. Many of the things he said just made me cringe, his political correctness, not giving good reasoning and answers but accepting their false premises, and then you could see their faces how they rightly had contempt for the Church in how stupid it or it's members were. Anyway, we don't do the Faith justice when we accept the false criticisms, and not give the better and more right answer, like I did above.
Just a thought.... :)
I think you misunderstand my intent. I'm not endorsing the "critics" views at all. I'm simply pointing out that their views are wrong and inconsequential to what any Mormon that understands the Temple to any degree should feel about it. I personally value the temple and the endowment and view it as very important and essential in our relationship with God. I simply differentiate between the various traditions that are in the Mormon temple and what is essential to the endowment (and temple worship in general). The fact Mormons have temples and are a temple people is one of the GREAT strengths of Mormonism and it is a blessing to have them. However, I do not believe the practices in the temple are necessarily pure or EXACTLY as God would intend since fallible human beings are involved.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Albion wrote:A valid scriptural reference (Biblical) for the Mormon "endowment that clearly spells out support for such, please.
Since I have already noted that your understanding (and comprehension) of the Bible is limited Albion, I believe it is simply sufficient to point out the Bible clearly indicates that men of God (in the Bible) went to the temple (or to mountain tops when such buildings were not around). Since you are unable to grasp what this means, I'll leave it at that for you to puzzle about.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin, I'll take your further cop out as evidence that you have, as I suspected, no Biblical reference supporting the fiction of Mormon temple "endowment"....a completely non-Biblical addition to the word of God. Applying the, oh so typically Mormon arrogance, of some superior understanding not applicable to lessor mortals is no defense of your position. It remains an evasion pure and simple.
Albion wrote:Tobin, I'll take your further cop out as evidence that you have, as I suspected, no Biblical reference supporting the fiction of Mormon temple "endowment"....a completely non-Biblical addition to the word of God. Applying the, oh so typically Mormon arrogance, of some superior understanding not applicable to lessor mortals is no defense of your position. It remains an evasion pure and simple.
It isn't a cop-out Albion. I'm just pointing out that for a discussion to take place, it requires a certain level of knowledge by the respondent. I don't believe you bring anything to the table that is remotely interesting on this topic.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
My friend, there is no need (in fact you shouldn't) to accept Anti-mormon negative premiss's and assumptions concerning the Church. There are in fact better arguments, better reasoning and factual information on every issue concerning the Church.
In other words, we don't need to try and "please" them, by saying things like "oh, we could maybe get rid of some things", etc. There is nothing wrong with the Temple Endowment or our Worship thereof.
This kind of thing drives me nuts when I hear faithful LDS say them. Even Scott Gordon did the same when he represented FAIR at some recent UVU panel presentation with two non-LDS on the panel. Many of the things he said just made me cringe, his political correctness, not giving good reasoning and answers but accepting their false premises, and then you could see their faces how they rightly had contempt for the Church in how stupid it or it's members were. Anyway, we don't do the Faith justice when we accept the false criticisms, and not give the better and more right answer, like I did above.
Just a thought.... :)
I think you misunderstand my intent. I'm not endorsing the "critics" views at all. I'm simply pointing out that their views are wrong and inconsequential to what any Mormon that understands the Temple to any degree should feel about it. I personally value the temple and the endowment and view it as very important and essential in our relationship with God. I simply differentiate between the various traditions that are in the Mormon temple and what is essential to the endowment (and temple worship in general). The fact Mormons have temples and are a temple people is one of the GREAT strengths of Mormonism and it is a blessing to have them. However, I do not believe the practices in the temple are necessarily pure or EXACTLY as God would intend since fallible human beings are involved.
Sure, I can understand that..... However, just be careful in your wording, because you not only likely correctly stated that it was good some past things were removed, but also stated some current things should likely be removed. That I think gives them the wrong impression.
But, your clarification is good, I understand, and hopefully they do as well. :)
Take care.....
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
Albion wrote:Tobin, I'll take your further cop out as evidence that you have, as I suspected, no Biblical reference supporting the fiction of Mormon temple "endowment"....a completely non-Biblical addition to the word of God. Applying the, oh so typically Mormon arrogance, of some superior understanding not applicable to lessor mortals is no defense of your position. It remains an evasion pure and simple.
It isn't a cop-out Albion. I'm just pointing out that for a discussion to take place, it requires a certain level of knowledge by the respondent. I don't believe you bring anything to the table that is remotely interesting on this topic.
Just as importantly..... I don't know why they expect every Mormon to "regurgitate" every single thing (evidence) they've seen and come to know over their lifetime, and do so on a message board.
They ignore the fact that most of us are average joes who study and learn for our edification, that we move on to the next thing to study and learn, not to be "Biblical Professors"..... Most of us aren't "scholars" that we can regurgitate everything we've learned in a post. Most of us have other talents and skill sets that we spend our time on.
Irony is that it's EASY for them, to just quote some anti-mormon article or make some negative easy claim.... There is no DEPTH of study, not deep intellectual thesis, yet thet expect it of us ALL THE TIME.... Like we have that kind of time, and to do it on a message board for people who don't care what we say anyway, or how well we say it, to waste our time on.
The arrogance is palpable.....
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
The plain and simple fact is that there is not one single verse in the Bible that supports the Mormon "endowment" period. Denigrating my knowledge and understanding, as I have pointed out a typical Mormon response, is no response and I shall take that as agreement.