ldsfaqs wrote:Remaining faithful to the "spirit" of the Law is not the same as having the Law.
Hello Ldsfaqs!
You have no idea how excited I am that we are having this discussion!! Please stay with me as we explore this! I am nearly desperate to have an LDS member whose input I trust and admire (and I have previously spoken this to you in private messages). Every time I feel I have found such a person, I never hear from them again. Perhaps you will stay due to the very circumstances of your own personal experiences.
You have not addressed the fact there have always been remnants. Look at Noah, for instance, who was perfect in his generations. Only he and seven others were saved to carry on to multiply and replenish the earth after she was destroyed by the flood and the earth that "was" perished.
Let us also look at the Book of Mormon itself. For over a thousand years it had remained hidden. Within the pages Joseph was allowed to translate, we can see that there were a people who held the priesthood authority even at the same time Peter held the priesthood authority. Now, even though Peter also held the keys to the kingdom, this was separate from the power and authority of the priesthood. Unfortunately, we also know, that except for the three Nephites, the rest of those who held the priesthood amongst the Nephites were eventually destroyed. Once you have the priesthood authority, it is permanent unless you live unworthily and lose it. I do not think the three Nephites lost their priesthood; after all, they continued on the earth doing the same work they had done before their wish was granted to them. The same thing is true of John - he never lost his priesthood when his wish was granted to him. So we are certain of at least four individuals who kept the priesthood continually upon the face of the earth; regardless of whether or not you believe other small groups continued with it and its accompanying power and authority but were hidden and obscured.
Now, let's look at something else we have been taught. There are others, like the Nephites, whose records we do not yet have! Since God is unchanging, I believe that there were other groups whom Christ visited and bestowed the priesthood with its accompanying power and authority. Inasmuch as we already know that John stayed on the earth, and that three Nephites stayed on the earth, I have every reason to believe that every other group visited by Christ would have had at least one person whose desire was to stay on the earth. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are filled with patterns and types. It is reasonable to believe that the same patterns and types will appear in those records as well once they have been revealed. Thus, we will also most likely learn that one or more individuals have been on the earth all along with their priesthood power and authority.
Therefore, as I believe it, the priesthood power and authority was never completely removed from the earth. Though, with Peter's death, the "keys of the kingdom" were removed. Those keys were Restored to Joseph Smith. This even keeps Peter's prophecy concerning the "present truth":
2 Peter 1:15 (KJV) (emphasis is mine)
Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.Thus, it was indeed appropriate and accurate for Joseph to have received the keys of the kingdom Restored to him by Peter. Now, the priesthood was also given to Joseph and Oliver - but it is my belief that the priesthood was still on the earth at the very least being held by those who remained on the earth rather than experience physical death until the end times. There was a huge difference, however, once it was given to Joseph and Oliver; because the entire purpose of the Restoration was to bring the True "present truth" Gospel back to the forefront and out of obscurity (which means "hidden" - not "lost"). This was God's choice to once more give mankind the opportunity to have the fullness of the Gospel in its correct understanding to be preached to the entire world once more. This, as opposed to just having small groups or remnants of those who still held the fullness of the Gospel but were forced to keep it to themselves, whom I also believe continued to hold the priesthood. God went to the trouble of preparing the circumstances for this Restoration by bringing to pass the United States for that purpose.
The same thing occurred with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. There being "good Christians" doesn't mean the "true" Priesthood and revealed truths survived in their fullness.
I quite agree. But I cannot dismiss those groups who remained hidden. If they had revealed themselves, they would have been destroyed. Thus, they were not able to actually proselyte and spread the correct present truth fullness of the Gospel. So, instead, they practiced and lived it quietly. Thus, I believe, we have two sources of peoples who had the fullness of the Gospel; those who remained hidden, and those who were like John and the three Nephites and others like them from amongst other groups whom Christ visited. So, I believe these other groups/churches - though not commonly defined as any kind of religious institution by today's standards, have still existed even though they had to go "underground" to survive. More importantly, I believe they DID continue to teach the "higher" understandings which Jesus taught the Apostles. They have some of those parts of All Truth which the Church does not teach as doctrine. Yet in following the Church's own teachings - especially as taught by Joseph, I seek them out so that I can continue to learn more parts of All Truth until such time as I HAVE received All Truth which enables my spirit to be completely awakened and born of the Spirit. This evolves into an individual's spirit to see and enter the Kingdom of God:
John 3:3-7 (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Just look at when Christ came..... There were of course "faithful Jews", but "The Church" was no longer Gods Church. It had been corrupted, the Priesthood had been lost and corrupted, so much so that Christ could not and did not put new wine into an old jar as he stated.
I know this is just semantics, but I do not consider the Jews to be a “church”. They are different in that they are a people – God’s chosen. From the time of Adam through the time of the Tower of Babel, there was basically only one group under which mankind’s record of communication with God is kept together in the Bible. We pretty much lose track after the confounding of language. Then, not until Abraham do we learn of the Covenant God entered into with Abraham. And not until Jacob does God change Jacob’s name to Israel, and the House of Israel becomes God’s “chosen”. Even then, we lose track of all of the tribes except for the lineage through which Jesus is eventually born. It is the records of the other tribes of Israel we look forward to having revealed to us. Meanwhile, though, we should never forget that God continued to communicate with ALL of His children; not just with the House of Israel. This is why we will also find parts of Truth everywhere. I do not think we should assume that WE have the only “parts” which are necessary. Until we have had ALL Truth revealed to us, we cannot even compare any of the parts – even though we can see some of the basics have survived, albeit, in a twisted and corrupted form in all world religions. For instance, see Ishmael and his descendants. The point I am making is that God has never left His children without communication to Him or from Him. I believe there have always been, and still are, prophets He has called to ALL of His children no matter where they are or whose lineage they come from.
John held the Priesthood, but not the Key's.
Further, you ignore the fact that the Priesthood was clearly lost as it has many times before.
Further, there is little evidence he even gave it at the end. His great calling was the Apocalypse, not the Priesthood or "the Church".
I would argue that it is “clear” the Priesthood was lost, if for no other reason than at least John and the three Nephites continued to hold it. You say that John’s great calling was the Apocalypse; yet within the Apocalypse we see the meaning of the conversation Jesus had with Peter concerning John’s staying on the earth (John 21:21-22), as well as D&C 7, wherein John’s desire for doing a greater work than Peter was to remain on the earth to prophesy to nations and to kings. Thus, the Apocalypse – though indeed of great importance – was not the end of John’s great work which was yet and is still being accomplished.
Of course, no one has said "truth" was fully lost. But it certainly can't be found in one place, thus for the purposes of "the Church", there was most certainly an apostasy.
I would agree – although I could clarify that “All Truth” had not, and has still not been revealed. In fact, I think that only individuals will eventually receive All Truth in their personal journey, as it is the Holy Ghost who leads to All Truth----not any church.
Never said they weren't "churches", in fact I said the opposite.
I said they are not the "True Church, the True and Living Church" of Christ.
Different thing, you're mixing ideas to justify your view.
However, if those which remained hidden continued to hold to the present truth, then indeed they are also “True” churches. Most certainly, they are living and are not dead. I believe they HAVE kept the correct present truth; and, they also have and practice many of the higher laws which the LDS Church does not teach.
I think I said, and clarified that they have the fullness of all revealed truth that the Lord sees fit to have us follow. Of course there are many "truths" out there. For example, we use the Protestant Bible as our main Bible when there still exists scriptures that aren't in the Bible some which are and aren't in any religion that Christ and the Apostles quoted from.
I only mean that we have the fullness that God want's us to have as his "True Church".
This is NOT a distinction that is being made when members of the Church claim that the LDS Church is the only True and living Church on the face of the earth. Also, as I have already explained, this is a misnomer. Now, even though it serves God's purposes (as God will use EVERY choice, whether right or wrong FOR His purposes), this does not mean that the Church has been accurate in its interpretation of D&C 1.
I believe there are many misinterpretations of what has been revealed since the Restoration. This same pattern was seen in the ancient church, as well as within the Jewish nation. Even though Peter held the keys to the kingdom, he would from time to time become a false Prophet/Apostle. Yet God never removed the keys to the kingdom from him. God knew that it would take time and experience for Peter to evolve in his own understanding and ability to receive more and more parts of Truth. Peter is one of the three who witnessed Christ’s Transformation. He also got to be taught with the other Apostles for approximately 40 days by the Master Himself. Yet still, he and the other Apostles were not taught everything Jesus knew – He only taught them what the Father wanted Him to teach because they were not yet able to handle any more. We don’t even have a complete record of what those Truths were. I believe Joseph was taught those Truths in preparation for him to be able to do the work God called him to do for the Restoration.
One of Joseph’s greatest fears, as was also Brigham’s fear, was that the members would place the Prophets upon a pedestal of man’s own making. They would not confirm what the latter-day Prophets were teaching by going personally to Father to find out if what they were hearing WAS Truth – or if their interpretation of what they “hearing” was correct. I believe this fear has been realized. And not only the general membership has been effected by this; but also the Leaders themselves. They have clung to misinterpretations of Truth and wound up teaching those misinterpretations AS Truth; and the members of the Church are now clinging to incorrect interpretations. And why wouldn’t this happen? This exact pattern has repeated itself time and time again throughout the history of mankind on our earth. The promise we HAVE received is that the Keys of the Kingdom would not be taken again. The Priesthood will remain even if for no other reason than there are individuals who will continue to live who hold it, who will not taste of physical death until the end times; at which time their experience of mortal death will occur in the twinkling of an eye. Also, we have Peter's example wherein the keys of the kingdom were not taken from him even though he became a false teacher from time to time.
The problem this has created is having a HUGE impact on the Church. It shakes the faith of even the most stalwart members who become disillusioned. Unless those individuals are walking a truly spiritual walk, the world will overtake them when they begin to have doubts and before they can gather their spiritual wits about them in order that they will be able to accept inconsistencies as a problem of man rather than a problem with God. Of course, this same thing has occurred in all churches. When people see inconsistencies in church leadership, they become susceptible to the powers of the adversary and often will fall away….losing not only faith in their religious institution; but also losing faith in God.
I would also like to point out that in the Revelation, there were seven different churches – not just “one” which were ALL “True”. Some were doing better than others; but none were perfect, and none was singled out as being the only “True” church. I believe that this is also a pattern; and every individual, and every “church” eventually evolve through all seven of those churches as they progress from precept upon precept. These are representative of physical, temporal, worldly religious institutions. On a spiritual level, however, there are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God; and the church of Satan. Many LDS believe that the LDS Church IS the Church of the Lamb of God. Yet the LDS Church is only a religious institution being used to help individuals to seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost – who is the ONLY source of leading man to All Truth on the earth. The purpose is to help the individual make choices which will help them to stand in the Church of the Lamb of God. Yet we ALL, as individuals, AND as religious institutions, will from moment to moment switch from one spiritual church to the other concerning who we are serving. We cannot serve two masters at the same time. Our choices determine which spiritual church we are standing in at any given moment. Like Peter, even though we can make the wrong choice, Father will not forsake us.
Sure, I know also what you say about seeking truth. And yes, I know about Joseph....
But remember, not all of Joseph's teachings and views are "doctrine", because they are his personal revelations and inspirations. God didn't reveal them to the Church, but to Joseph.
So, there is a reason some things aren't taught.
Revelation and Doctrines of God have a more "stringent" process of what makes truth.
Revealed scripture is that process God uses for His Church and people.
Man's "personal" inspiration is not Doctrine of the Church.
Take me for example..... Through my own trial of Faith and apostasy from the Church and religion, and my continued Faith in wanting to "know", God revealed to me that the actual reason for the Priesthood ban was because of the racism against the Black African. And that when that racism ended, the ban was then removed. It was pure revelation from God after having the Faith to seek, to understand, to know the whole and actual truth of the issue, rather than my own prejudices and judgments.
I teach that idea..... I'm absolutely 100% certain it is the truth, it is the mind of God on the issue. But it's not "doctrine" of the Church, it has not been revealed as "reveled scripture" to the Church. So, the Church can only say, it doesn't know why the ban existed.
I actually agree with your idea about the ban of the Blacks and why the ban was eventually removed. However, this furthers the problem with how others see the Church. It also is an indication that the very concept of professing that the Church is “True” is a misnomer. During the banning of the Blacks, the Church was “false” in this area!!! Was Father well pleased with the Church during this time? I think not. During that time, how was the Church any different from other churches who were teaching as doctrine the commandments of men?? Now we are left with some Leaders who have become just like the Pharisees for the very reason that they are not willing to admit what happened, either through pride or fear that members will not understand. Until they are willing to do so, they will continue to lose credibility not only among the membership of the Church, but also with the rest of the world whom the Church is trying to be an example for.
The Church makes such a wonderful effort to teach members to seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost. So, when members ARE taught Truths by the Holy Ghost which are not recognized as doctrine by the Church, what happens to those members? They are warned not to teach anything that is NOT taught as doctrine…..they are left with no one to fellowship with or to edify with those Truths. Yet Paul taught that ALL members should seek after the greatest gifts and that members who had received different parts of Truth should have the opportunity to share them within the church in order to edify and/or be edified by others who had had Truth revealed to them. I am having great difficult reconciling this against what the Church does NOT allow us to do today.
I understand how many of the members are only able to receive milk. But by preventing those who have had meat revealed to them from sharing this with others, the ones who only understand milk will not be able to progress if all they are allowed to talk about is milk. The Church has gone so far as to excommunicate members who wanted to learn more or to be able to share what was revealed to them. This is NOT a pattern of anything shown in the ancient church. In fact, the only excommunications we are aware of in the New Testament, are three performed by Paul. Two were for blasphemers, and one was to remove a member who was sleeping with his father’s wife – who was a bad example. Paul’s desire was to give them all back to Satan in order to save their souls.
Me, almost no one has studied the issue like I have.... So, God revealed his will to me.
Another is from a very young age, I wanted to have wisdom, and to be able to judge good and evil in men. Because of that faith and the work I did to learn that skill, God gave it. Now, I see so much, that I see things I don't want to see. My discernment skills of human behavior, countenance's etc. is on overdrive. It's part of what makes me less tolerant of the evil men do to others, such as on this board. Another thing God granted was a gift in voice.... I used it, worked on it, and it developed.
Everything comes through Study and Faith......
For me, the evil that men do to each other has not made me less tolerant. Rather, it makes me sad. It also makes me more careful as to which threads or comments I will respond to. I realize that they also must travel their own personal journey; I can share what I believe, but cannot force them to believe it. We cannot or should not desire to take away their own free will. Their relationship with God is their own. I have a better understanding as to WHY people are the way they are. But WHO they are is still of greater importance; they are Father’s children made in His image. Their spirit being is trapped inside their body of flesh which is part of the physical world. And right now, the god of this world is Satan. For me it then becomes a test of my faithfulness to keep the second great commandment; loving others no matter what. I am certainly far from keeping this commandment perfectly; and until I AM able to keep it perfectly, I cannot truthfully say that I love God – even though this is my greatest desire….to love God.
As to milk being mostly what's taught.... Well, yes and no. Yes, because most members are simply children still, not able to eat the meat. They are still trying to get the basics. But as to Meat, you are wrong.... Those of us who go to Institute, Know your religions, study well LDS history, take various Church courses from great LDS scholars etc., study their apologetics and/or scholarship, there is MUCH Meat out there to be eaten. The meat is there for those who want it and are ready for it. The meat is there in the Temple, for those who also read the scriptures, especially the Bible at the same time, who then start to see the Endowment and other Temple taught principles actually contained in the scriptures.
There is also more than meat understanding. And I do believe that there are some, perhaps more than I realize, who are truly on a spiritual walk; but I have not been able to find any who are willing to go beyond what Church Leaders “officially” teach. So, although they are able to find many layers of understanding in the scriptures and in their visits to the Temple, they are still limiting themselves either due to fear of being ostracized, or because of their self-placed limitations; they are not able to receive more Truth which is ready and waiting for them as soon as Father deems they are ready.
Also, I realize that the Temple is a place where, in the member’s mind, he can find peace from the crazy world, and have the opportunity to think and ponder on more spiritual matters. However, the temples are NOT the only place where they can have higher parts of Truth revealed to them.
Additionally, as you have stated, Joseph had received personal revelation about things which were not made doctrine; yet they were parts of Truth if it was the Holy Ghost who revealed them to him. Now, he was a Prophet of God; and he was frustrated with the members because they couldn’t get past the basics. Yet he still did discuss some of those revelations with family and close friends. Who do we, who are not prophets, go to discuss these things? How can we edify one another if we are not allowed to do so by the Church?
Anyway, the "Mysteries" are there for those who go after them. But, we must keep the basics, or we go off track. Take Kerry Shirts for example. Once a stalwart member, now somewhat an Atheist Agnostic happily accepting their strawmen and false arguments against religion, arguments that are easily debunkable. A person can get too far, and forget the basics becoming prideful.
I think you are following into that..... because a most fundamental basic is that the Church IS the "only True Church". Additional truths or meat, does not change fundamental truths, they only add to them.
It is my opinion that if a church IS True, then one should be able to be edified at ALL levels of understanding, and also to the degree of the amount of All Truth which has been revealed to them; rather than to fear sharing it or not be able to find a place within the Church to be able to discuss it without fear of consequences. In some of the other small groups which have survived throughout the Christian era, there ARE individuals who God has called for the purpose of allowing this type of edification to take place without fear of reprisal. I sincerely believe that God’s purpose for the Restoration was also to provide such a sanctuary for those who were able to have more parts of Truth revealed to them. As usual though, Prophets are hated and killed. That did not change with Joseph. He was learning more of those higher Truths but never had the chance to establish a way for members to be given access to them. That is how quickly the LDS Church has strayed. However, I believe God still guides her. Also, she is a vehicle through which the ordinances can be performed for both the living and the dead. Although there are many and have been many completely devoted Leaders throughout her lifetime, the same abilities which Joseph had are not being manifested today. Unless the Leaders repent of misinterpretations they teach as doctrine, they are not going to have those abilities restored to them which Joseph enjoyed.
Because it's simply not revealed doctrine by God. What Joseph believed may or may not be true on that issue. Until God says one way or the other, it's okay to speculate, but again, additional truth must still be compatible with existing truth. That idea may be, but that's personal.
It has been revealed as Truth to me. Now that it has been revealed, it seems so plainly and clearly taught in the Bible…..but that is how it always is when we finally “see” something we never saw before. And we wonder at how it is we never saw it before. More importantly it is still a part of All Truth.
That's because Biblical Translations and wording are "tricky" on some things....
Sometimes they call the Holy Ghost a "gift" when it's not actually the Gift OF being given, because after all, having a great experience with the Holy Ghost IS a "gift".
Yes, the Holy Ghost IS a “gift”. But even when the ordinance is performed, the words used are “receive the Holy Ghost”; NOT “receive the ‘gift’ of the Holy Ghost”.
But, it's easy to understand, because there is a nice Bible story indicating the "difference" between simply experiencing the influence of the Holy Ghost, and getting the "Gift OF", which is given by one in authority. There were some who were baptized, new the Holy Ghost, were baptised by one in authority, but had to WAIT from someone else to come who had the authority to give the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost.
Again, the words used were to “receive the Holy Ghost”; not the gift of the Holy Ghost.
See, this is how man-made religions are created. Man uses his own limited judgment, missing key scriptures and creating an entire ideology out of it, just like you just did. That's ONE of the reasons for a "True Church"..... So we as a body, by the Gift of the Holy Ghost and the Priesthood of God, work together to know of the TRUE doctrine of God, rather than the doctrines of men.
My point exactly! And I believe the confusion over the “receiving the Holy Ghost” as opposed to “receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost” is one of those very things which have evolved as incorrect doctrine. Think about it, we are taught that there will be those for whom proxy ordinances have been performed who will be Exalted. How is this possible if they have never “received the Holy Ghost”? My idea of the “gift” of the Holy Ghost can be reconciled with this question even though a person never “received the Holy Ghost” by the laying on of hands. It is the performance of the ordinance which is in keeping with God’s Kingdom being a house of order; it is a contract which must be entered into. Meanwhile, however, through the gift of the Holy Ghost, they HAVE been led to All Truth without ever having been a member of the LDS Church during their physical lifetime.
Maybe the same reason Zen & Taoism and Shaolin isn't taught by the Church....?
Some things being true and a "form" of higher way, is not all things of the thing in question.
Kabbalah as well as other "spiritual paths" of "enlightenment" are useful to a degree, but they cross several lines that are not compatible with God's Gospel.
I studied Ninjitsu also, and as useful as some of those things where, a lot also weren't compatible with God, but were the doctrines of men mingled with truth.
You falsely assume that Kabbalah are the "higher teachings" of God. I see no more in it than what any of the above spiritual philosophy's also teach. While there is some truth to it, for example my studying those things and Martial Arts made me a better Mormon, there are also some bad things, for my being so much into those things also were part of what caused me to leave the Church and religion. So, balance and understanding and living the basics is what's foremost important in the "understanding", knowing and the gaining truth. Because if you don't, you loose the basics, as I've tried to show you here.
Basic, the Church IS the "only True Church"..... :)
I can appreciate what you are sharing. One does need to keep a balance. My experience is that there are many groups which teach Kabbalah; one must be careful and just as prayerful and steadfast in seeking the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I have come across the teachings of a few Kabbalah apostles who do teach in accordance with the Restored Gospel; only they teach even more than what is being taught in the LDS Church. They teach reincarnation and more than three Heavens – just as Joseph believed (about multiple probations), and what he taught as doctrine (concerning more than three heavens). Using the same tests of discernment, I am blown away by their higher teachings. I have done much research on where the Jewish Kabbalah came from. The Christian Kabbalah has additional teachings which were taught by Christ. They have more manuscripts which they recognize as scripture than the ones put together by the RCC and later revised by the Reformation denominations which we call the Bible. Their teachings are TRUE!
They are also True groups/churches – in fact they teach more parts of All Truth than the LDS Church teaches. The LDS Church still keeps the keys to the kingdom as well as the important role she plays in performing ordinances for the living and the dead. I would remind you at this point of the seven True churches referred to in the Revelation, which indicate that there never was just “one” True church. However, I have no problem with believing that from time to time God has been well pleased with one or the other of them. Likewise, He has at time from time been well pleased with the LDS Church; though right now I believe he is “more” well pleased with some of the members than He is with the Church collectively. Otherwise, we would be seeing more miracles and receiving more revelations from the Leadership.
Again, please stick with me through this discussion.
Many blessings,
jo
