Dcharle wrote:I This very issue is one of the nails in the coffin for me.
Well written and I agree, a definite nail in the coffin. The temple ceremonies are shameless copies of Masonry ceremonies, dressed up with new interpretations. I, too, buried my misgivings about the temple ceremonies for many years. Do we self-delude or do uncomfortable questions always get pushed to a back-burner?
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
Dcharle wrote:I This very issue is one of the nails in the coffin for me.
Well written and I agree, a definite nail in the coffin. The temple ceremonies are shameless copies of Masonry ceremonies, dressed up with new interpretations. I, too, buried my misgivings about the temple ceremonies for many years. Do we self-delude or do uncomfortable questions always get pushed to a back-burner?
I wouldn't have a problem with it, except it is supposed to be revelation from God to Joseph. Joseph didn't dress it up. He thought it dated back to Solomon. He makes this mistake on many things and then claims them as revelation from God. This represents good evidence of someone making it up, and then claiming revelation from God for it. We probably should believe him though, since people never do that, especially here.
Themis wrote: I wouldn't have a problem with it, except it is supposed to be revelation from God to Joseph. Joseph didn't dress it up. He thought it dated back to Solomon. He makes this mistake on many things and then claims them as revelation from God. This represents good evidence of someone making it up, and then claiming revelation from God for it. We probably should believe him though, since people never do that, especially here.
Several people, both here and at MDDB, have talked about the temple ceremonies being changed, or modernized. I went through the Salt Lake Temple the first time, back in the sixties, when actors portrayed the whole story. I've come to understand that the ceremonies now are much shorter but I am curious as to what other changes have occurred. I was struck then by the weirdness and how uncomfortable I felt with secret words and secret actions and oaths taken about the secrecy, all in utmost solemnity and by a church that had assured me that it had no secrets.
And then I found books that proclaimed boldly and unashamedly the minutest details of the secret ceremonies, both the Masonic and the Mormon. When I asked my Bishop about it, he said, "Oh that. Forget about it. It's no big deal." How wrong he was!
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
I asked this question of a Church Leader who responded by saying "God wanted Joseph to have the Masonic rituals so He put Freemasonry in Joseph's path..."
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
From the autobiography of Hawkins Taylor, Sheriff of Lee County Iowa in 1844 (available in Hallwas collections, archives at Western Illinois University, Macomb, Illinois) He was a friend of George Miller and William Smith-- didn't much like any of the others.
All of the Mormons were Free Masons. They had a charter of Illinois, but they added a new order or degree, that of "Illinois" by which, if a stranger came into the city, the sign was given and as quick as thought, it was known all over the city so that anyone who feared arrest could hide.
For this, the Mormons were cut off (as Masons), but they cared noting for that. They initiated almost the entire church into the order.
Funny. He immediately moves into the Hodge brothers' murders of Miller and Leisa in Lee county, and how the Mormons protected the Hodge brothers. This was shortly before the deaths of Hyrum and Joseph Smith.
Gadiantons, anyone? (maybe I ought to change my sig)
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
Dcharle wrote:I This very issue is one of the nails in the coffin for me.
Well written and I agree, a definite nail in the coffin. The temple ceremonies are shameless copies of Masonry ceremonies, dressed up with new interpretations. I, too, buried my misgivings about the temple ceremonies for many years. Do we self-delude or do uncomfortable questions always get pushed to a back-burner?
You better stop celebrating Christmas then.....
After all, you don't want to "self-delude" yourself!!!
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
By the way it may not have been clear, but my post was meant to show Masonry had Hebrew/Jewish ties rather than Early Christian.
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
bcuzbcuz wrote: Well written and I agree, a definite nail in the coffin. The temple ceremonies are shameless copies of Masonry ceremonies, dressed up with new interpretations. I, too, buried my misgivings about the temple ceremonies for many years. Do we self-delude or do uncomfortable questions always get pushed to a back-burner?
You better stop celebrating Christmas then.....
After all, you don't want to "self-delude" yourself!!!
Ldsfaqs, do you believe that specific handshakes and associated passwords are going to be required to gain entry into the Celestial Kingdom?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
After all, you don't want to "self-delude" yourself!!!
Do you mean Christmas as "Christ Mass" such as the Catholic church used to usurp the pagan traditions of the Yule, with log and tree and feasting of autumn's bounty? Or do you mean Xmas as usurped by Coca Cola's red clad Saint Nick that had in turn usurped the annual harvest feasts? Or do you mean the present form of Seasonal Holidays where we gorge on fatty foods and rampant commerialism?
No need for your cautionary note, I stopped holding such delusional feasting many years ago.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
1. There is a difference between "elements" of historical Temple Worship, including Solomon's Temple being a PART of LDS Temple Worship and/or Masonry, than "everything" related is from Solomon's Temple.
No LDS including Joseph Smith ever believed the later, you people misrepresent him.
2. LDS Temple Worship using elements of Masonry also means nothing. Ever looked at "Christmas" lately??? As "Christian" practice that uses tons of things from historical Paganism etc.
Groups of all kinds including religions have adopted elements of other things and incorporated them into their worship, kept some similar meanings and changed others. Take the "Inverted Five Pointed Star"..... It existed in Judaism and Christianity all over their buildings and worship rights LONG before it became a "Satanic Symbol" that Christians falsely judge the Church over calling us Satanic simply because we also have the same or similar symbols on our Temples.
Take also elements of Masonry...... that LDS now use in our Temples.
GUESS WHAT..... Most of them ALSO existed long before in Judaism AND Christianity well before Mormons ever used them, AND before and while Masonry was using them.
There are LOT'S of evidences of LDS Temple practices found in historical Christian & Judaism worship. Masonry stuff didn't simply originate in Masonry, THEY ALSO GOT IT FROM ELSEWHERE!!!
One other point..... Temple Worship uses "symbols" to teach PRINCIPLES..... It's one reason why LDS avoid the "Cross". That is simply not the "kind" of symbol we want to use concerning Christ and his message. In other words, the symbols don't matter in where they came from, who used them, why, etc..... Their only importance is what they mean to Mormons!!!
So SO WHAT if Masonry used them, getting them from all kinds of places, so what if Christmas symbols many of them came from Pagan Fertility Rights. SO WHAT???
Tell us again how this is somehow a "smoking gun"???
You are very wrong on this one, it is very clear that most of the early church leadership believed that the endowment was "celestial masonry" consider the following quote:
Referring again to the mythology of the Scandinavians and Germans, what do you find? A religion of good morals. I venture to say that if modern Christianity, corrupted as it is today, is a remnant of the true Christianity introduced by our Savior; if the Free Masonry of today is a remnant and corruption of the true signs and tokens of the Priesthood revealed in the days of Solomon, when the Temple of Solomon was built, then it is easy for us to understand and believe that the mythology of the north is simply a corruption of the true Jehovah worship, as Abraham knew it and taught it to his children. (CR April 1913, Elder Andrew Jenson)