Lyin' Ryan

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:That's the problem with politics today. Apparently everyone not only gets to have their own opinions, but their own facts.



Has it really ever been any different? Read a bio of Abe Lincoln. We seem tame to some of what was said back then in political campaigns.
_beastie
_Emeritus
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Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _beastie »

Jason Bourne wrote:
beastie wrote:That's the problem with politics today. Apparently everyone not only gets to have their own opinions, but their own facts.



Has it really ever been any different? Read a bio of Abe Lincoln. We seem tame to some of what was said back then in political campaigns.


Oh, I know political campaigns have always been nasty. But I think that the media has let us down in the past couple of decades in terms of demanding that politicians at least concede basic facts. I blame cable networks for that. In the day of 24/7 news channels, said news channels have to try and find a particular niche that will increase viewership. Then it's more entertainment than actual news, but it's cloaked as news. Sometimes it appears that the shows that actually present themselves as entertainment do a better job at presenting actual news.


For example, the article you linked said this:

Medicare - Sorry, guys, but it is 100 percent true that Obamacare raided $716 Billion from Medicare to pay for itself. It does cut benefits to current seniors. And Paul Ryan's plan took the president's Medicare "savings," and re-routed them back into Medicare to shore up the program. Mitt Romney's plan would undo those cuts altogether. Obama took those cuts and used them to pay for Obamacare. He has admitted this on camera:


This directly contradicts the Democrats' claim that benefits are NOT cut to current seniors. How can both be true?

If you follow the link that your article provides to prove this claim, you see this:

Providers for whom Medicare constitutes a substantive portion of their business could find it difficult to remain profitable and, absent legislative intervention, might end their participation in the program (possibly jeopardizing access to care for beneficiaries). Simulations by the Office of the Actuary suggest that roughly 15 percent of Part A providers would become unprofitable within the 10-year projection period as a result of the productivity adjustments.


So here's another explanation:
As for the cuts, they come from eliminating a massive subsidy to private insurers and gradually reducing the rate of growth in payments to some providers. These changes, while not catastrophic for Medicare, are important. Under the ACA, the federal government will substantially reduce the amount it spends funding Medicare Advantage, which is privately administered insurance offered to Medicare beneficiaries. About one-quarter of Medicare recipients are enrolled in private Medicare Advantage. In theory, these plans are supposed to manage health care spending better than fee-for-service Medicare. But they don’t actually save the federal government any money. They cost, per patient, 14% more than traditional Medicare. (See Figure 3 of this fact sheet from the Kaiser Family Foundation. And see here for more.) The ACA eliminates this subsidy and pegs Medicare Advantage payments to quality metrics.

The second bunch of money that gets cut from Medicare under Obamacare comes from providers. Hospitals, home health agencies and others will see Medicare payments grow more slowly than they have in the past.

Medicare benefits will not change – in theory. However, providers who get paid less from Medicare in the future may be less inclined to accept Medicare patients, thereby reducing access. The frequently criticized Independent Payment Advisory Board, created by the ACA, could cut provider payments even more to keep the growth in Medicare spending under a benchmark. If Medicare per capita spending grows faster than a rate pegged to inflation and later GDP, IPAB will be empowered to recommend provider payment cuts. If Congress can’t find alternative ways to keep Medicare spending growth under the inflation or GDP benchmark, the IPAB recommendations will automatically go into effect. This too could reduce access. Bonus Medicare Advantage benefits – like free gym memberships – may go away.

In exchange for these kinds of reductions in Medicare spending, funding for the program was bolstered in other ways by the ACA. Preventive care is now covered at 100% for Medicare beneficiaries and a gap in Medicare prescription drug coverage will slowly close under the law. Some Medicare beneficiaries, primarily wealthy Americans, will pay higher Medicare premiums and taxes under the ACA.

The idea, however, that the Affordable Care Act struck a dangerous blow to Medicare that will change the program in fundamental ways is untrue. Under the new law, Medicare will remain a wildly popular, public single-payer health insurance system that provides comprehensive coverage to millions of Americans.


http://swampland.time.com/2012/08/16/fa ... care-cuts/

So Obama eliminated one program that did NOT save any money, and compensated for the second reduction via the ACA.

Ryan, OTOH, included those same cuts, but then eliminates ACA which compensated for those same cuts. And yet now he gets to say Obama is hurting seniors? Come on!

I know everyone puts their own spin on things, but when the spin reaches the point where it's almost impossible to determine the facts, then there's a problem.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Droopy
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Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _Droopy »

beastie wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:An alternative view just for balance:

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/ ... ans_speech


That's the problem with politics today. Apparently everyone not only gets to have their own opinions, but their own facts.



Not really. The problem is that there are large numbers of people who simply do not care what the truth is, so long as their ideological vision remains untarnished.

Benson does a nice job (as he always does) dismantling the Ryan lie meme point by point, and showing in the process that an administration with nothing to run on but a record of economic destruction, a national security policy so reckless and uninformed as to be nearly deranged; a grey, bleak economic and social future managed and controlled by a thick, suffocating blanket of welfare agencies, welfare programs, doting bureaucrats, crippling limitations on personal liberty, spreading limitations on personal economic freedom (EPA regulations of CO2, the targeted destruction of the American fossil fuel energy sector, massive tax increases across the middle class as well as upper income earners, crushing debt, the decline and potential collapse of the dollar) the return of a vicious entitlement and class war mentality; a quasi-totalitarian attitude about the preeminence and utter dominance of the state in all matters of human life; and so many other aspects of the present administration, great and small, that have made it, indeed, a "post-American" presidency, leave it nothing but a scorched earth campaign of defamation as its approach to political discourse.

The Democratic party is the sixties in full institutional garb. Just as toxic, just as smug, and just as bereft of either serious ideas or moral qualms.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_Droopy
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Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _Droopy »

Medicare - Sorry, guys, but it is 100 percent true that Obamacare raided $716 Billion from Medicare to pay for itself. It does cut benefits to current seniors. And Paul Ryan's plan took the president's Medicare "savings," and re-routed them back into Medicare to shore up the program. Mitt Romney's plan would undo those cuts altogether. Obama took those cuts and used them to pay for Obamacare. He has admitted this on camera:

This directly contradicts the Democrats' claim that benefits are NOT cut to current seniors. How can both be true?


They can't:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/0 ... y-thought/

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/ ... hr6079.pdf

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/08/01/oba ... nd-itself/

In fact, Mr. Benson has some other evidence at hand:

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/ ... _obamacare

http://www.nationalreview.com/blogs/print/313757

Ryan, OTOH, included those same cuts, but then eliminates ACA which compensated for those same cuts. And yet now he gets to say Obama is hurting seniors? Come on!


The Obama cuts are absolute cuts in services. Ryan's cuts are quite different and aimed at bringing market competition and individual choice into the Medicare system rather than cutting a broad swath of benefits through the program. The ACA is all about government command and control, and moving the nation, in its next phase, to a fully socialized system.

And, in any case, Medicare has a 75 year unfunded liability $37 trillion, and according to the CBO, Medicare financially collapses in about 12 years (about the same time Medicare runs out of money, in the middle 2020s).
Last edited by Guest on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _Droopy »

Then there's the fantastic and labyrinthine double counting problem:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 34276.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/blogs/print/314261

And the frightening long term effects of the ACA as a whole:

http://mercatus.org/sites/default/files ... -Act_1.pdf
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Drifting
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Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _Drifting »

Droopy wrote:Then there's the fantastic and labyrinthine double counting problem:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 34276.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/blogs/print/314261

And the frightening long term effects of the ACA as a whole:

http://mercatus.org/sites/default/files ... -Act_1.pdf


Hi Droopy, glad to see you back....again...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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_beastie
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Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _beastie »

Ah, yes, even more Ryan hypocrisy unveiled. His previous hypocrisy includes decrying Obama's stimulus and then begging for stimulus money, PLUS his history of voting for the Bush stimulus. It also includes crying about the deficit while voting for unfunded wars and tax cuts. But here's the latest:

Ryan decries "Obamacare", and yet quietly asked for money from that very plan.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/169757/ex ... acare-cash

(the link includes a copy of the actual letter from Ryan)

Republican vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan is barnstorming the country, promising to repeal every provision of the Affordable Care Act if the Romney-Ryan ticket is elected. But a letter he wrote to the Obama administration may undermine this message.

On December 10, 2010, Ryan penned a letter to the Department of Health and Human Services to recommend a grant application for the Kenosha Community Health Center, Inc to develop a new facility in Racine, Wisconsin, an area within Ryan’s district. “The proposed new facility, the Belle City Neighborhood Health Center, will serve both the preventative and comprehensive primary healthcare needs of thousands of new patients of all ages who are currently without healthcare,” Ryan wrote.

The grant Ryan requested was funded directly by the Affordable Care Act, better known simply as healthcare reform or Obamacare.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _Drifting »

beastie wrote:Ah, yes, even more Ryan hypocrisy unveiled. His previous hypocrisy includes decrying Obama's stimulus and then begging for stimulus money, PLUS his history of voting for the Bush stimulus. It also includes crying about the deficit while voting for unfunded wars and tax cuts. But here's the latest:

Ryan decries "Obamacare", and yet quietly asked for money from that very plan.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/169757/ex ... acare-cash

(the link includes a copy of the actual letter from Ryan)

Republican vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan is barnstorming the country, promising to repeal every provision of the Affordable Care Act if the Romney-Ryan ticket is elected. But a letter he wrote to the Obama administration may undermine this message.

On December 10, 2010, Ryan penned a letter to the Department of Health and Human Services to recommend a grant application for the Kenosha Community Health Center, Inc to develop a new facility in Racine, Wisconsin, an area within Ryan’s district. “The proposed new facility, the Belle City Neighborhood Health Center, will serve both the preventative and comprehensive primary healthcare needs of thousands of new patients of all ages who are currently without healthcare,” Ryan wrote.

The grant Ryan requested was funded directly by the Affordable Care Act, better known simply as healthcare reform or Obamacare.


:lol:
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_krose
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Re: Lyin' Ryan

Post by _krose »

It's truly a bizzarro world, where a couple of Republicans (who have claimed to be fiscally responsible people who champion states rights) are excoriating a Democratic president for cutting wasteful spending from Medicare, and for giving states more autonomy to improve their methods for getting needy people from welfare to work.
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton
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