Drifting - what does he believe/not believe...?

[_subgenius]

I have brought up a number of your lies. I guess lying is not something you think is wrong.

CFR

I am still waiting for you to back up what you have proposed. I have only been showing others that you continue to avoid.

Wait no more! (though i have argued my position ad nausea - by the way, your displeasure with my argument doth not render it false)
Here is a link/quote to the most recent example as to "backing it up":

I will pull a subby and take that as a concession you agree that a fallible person cannot have an infallible experience. Thanks.

[_Drifting]

Themis, you may by now have realised that subgenius is more interested in dragging threads down a rabbit hole of petty semantics rather than discuss the thread topic itself.

The more you feed him, the more he plays...

Ok, then let us return to the "thread topic"
Now that we have received volume 1, titled "what you do not believe" we are waiting for volume 2 "what you do believe"...as was noted before, and has no doubt been noticed by most lurkers and those with modest reasoning abilities and literacy.

For example...you could post a statement like "I believe in my attending Priesthood/Quorum at my ward because....."

(and i am sure Themis appreciates you trying to bail him out, but the fact remains - Themis is proposing that an infallible experience is possible for a fallible creature.)

I refer you, for the second time, to the parts of the OP starting with "I believe..."

[_subgenius]

I refer you, for the second time, to the parts of the OP starting with "I believe..."

As was requested - You attend Priesthood classes why?

[_Themis]

I have brought up a number of your lies. I guess lying is not something you think is wrong.

CFR

Here is just one.

I am leaving this thread now, and going on to something else. Any who want to continue this discussion without me, are welcome to do so. My heartfelt thanks to all who have participated--especially subgenius, Tobin, Little Nipper and others who have inadvertently done even more to validate the conclusions stated in my OP than those who spoke out in favor of it!

nice concession speech

Wait no more! (though i have argued my position ad nausea - by the way, your displeasure with my argument doth not render it false)
Here is a link/quote to the most recent example as to "backing it up":

I see you missed the "pulled a subby" part. Feel free anytime to state your position. I got from your posts you believe the spiritual experience or witness can somehow impart absolute knowledge to the receiver, such that they will know with absoluteness that it is true, but you think one cannot do such with the 5 senses.

[_subgenius]

I refer you, for the second time, to the parts of the OP starting with "I believe..."

OK, let us do just that: (spoiler alert - typing "i believe" in front of a statement does not make that a "belief".)

I believe that if God does exist then He does nothing to interfere physically with this life. I cannot accept belief in an all powerful God who chooses to allow His children to be sexually abused as part of mankind's learning process towards a greater good.

I believe "if"...not a statement of belief, it is a conditional statement - for example "He believes in God when he sees Him" - not a belief.
You then state "I cannot accept belief" = this is a statement of disbelief

I believe religion is mankind's mechanism for dealing with its collective fear of death. Religion breeds discrimination and exclusion rather than equality and inclusion.

I can almost grant your initial statement, though it is an inferred negative statement, as a belief statement but then you proceed to support that statement with examples of things "you don't believe"
So you are effectively saying "I believe religion is a delusion because things keep being false" - this is just an elaborate way of you stating "i do not believe in religion" - disbelief. In fact most of what you are saying is not necessarily a belief but just an opinion.

I believe Mormonism is a cult. Nothing within the religion has been necessary in terms of human advancement either morally or physically.

again, a negative statement is not an affirmation of a belief. see previous comments.
Another example:
You say to me "Subby, I believe you are wrong about the date for the flood" - not a statement of belief, because you are just stating your disbelief of me. Above you are simply saying "I believe Mormonism is not a religion" - not a statement of belief

I believe Mormonism has some very good people as members, but no more so than the local social club.

I can almost give you this one...but the details are rendered irrelevant by you...you have effectively stated "I believe there are good people" - which arguably is not a belief because it is really just a viewpoint/opinion.

I believe the Bible is a collection of handed down tales and stories and fables.

OK, this one is close enough - one belief noted.

I believe that we really do not fully understand what the human body's physical and physiological systems are capable of.

"I believe we do not know something" - not really a belief statement but a faithful one. You get half a point.

I do not believe in ghosts, angels, heavenly messengers, internal promptings by a supernatural being.

obvious statement of disbelief

I believe that we should concentrate on living this life....

You believe in concentration, got it...not really a belief, i am sure Hitler concentrated...but what the heck...lets give you a full point.

I believe in live and let live within the confines of the law of the land. But I also believe that the law of the land shouldn't stand still.

this one is interesting...because there is no solid belief there...but the inference is nice
Seemingly you believe in "continuing revelation" but we know that wont pass muster with you...so what is it? You believe in yes for today but no for tomorrow. Seems like you believe in whatever the wind blows by....nope, simpler than that...You believe that beliefs are actually NOT held truths but rather are transient conveniences. hmm..i gotta stick with this being a statement of disbelief wherein you actually reveal that you do not believe in beliefs.
for example:

I believe in not holding my views and opinions and beliefs too tightly because they change.

beliefs should evolve. I'm okay with that.

and lastly

I believe we should enjoy life - we're not here for a long time, we're here for a good time!

which i affirmed as a "belief" as correctly noting "Hedonism"...which you are but a cursory adherent of.

Ok, fair enough - for all that OP (shortened here) we can give you 3.5 belief points
which follow as such:
1. the Bible is a collection of handed down tales and stories and fables
2. our bodies have capabilities which are currently unknown
3. concentration is good
4. Hedonism

funny, i don't think this what Franktalk had in mind when he posed the challenge to you, as you noted in the OP.
But hey, i guess you are correct, what was i thinking - clearly you have stated your beliefs.

when I've been wrong I've said so and apologised.

CFR

[_subgenius]

Here is just one.

nice concession speech

definition 2b http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concession
but exactly where is my "lie"? my "falsehood" - surely given your claim there is an abundance of obviously deceitful statements....this example seems so subtle as to not be there at all.

but you think one cannot do such with the 5 senses.

have you not maintained that any "spiritual experience" is not possible outside of the 5 senses? outside of the realm of that which "senses" (the brain)? If that be the case then, once again, you have proven my claim to be true or yours to be false...i will let you choose which.

(i hope you are big tipper, cause you getting served all up in here!)

[_Themis]

definition 2b http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/concession
but exactly where is my "lie"? my "falsehood" - surely given your claim there is an abundance of obviously deceitful statements....this example seems so subtle as to not be there at all.

I need only give one. You might try reading the definition you provided. You said he conceded when we both know that is not true, and therefore a lie.

have you not maintained that any "spiritual experience" is not possible outside of the 5 senses? outside of the realm of that which "senses" (the brain)? If that be the case then, once again, you have proven my claim to be true or yours to be false...i will let you choose which.

Feel free any time to clarify your position. Until then I see no reason to believe you want real discussion.

(i hope you are big tipper, cause you getting served all up in here!)

Only in your head.

[_Drifting]

I refer you, for the second time, to the parts of the OP starting with "I believe..."

As was requested - You attend Priesthood classes why?

Because I'm a Mormon Priesthood holder.

[_subgenius]

I need only give one. You might try reading the definition you provided. You said he conceded when we both know that is not true, and therefore a lie.

i did read it...and posted it....and i said he conceded, because he did, by definition. Just because you "think" he did not, does not make me a liar.
Just as your post here does not make you a liar, it just makes you incorrect - not a liar - just incorrect.

Feel free any time to clarify your position. Until then I see no reason to believe you want real discussion.

a rather awkward concession by you?.........but how much clearer can i make my position? what seems to be "unclear"?
"have you not maintained that any "spiritual experience" is not possible outside of the 5 senses? outside of the realm of that which "senses" (the brain)?"
either that statement is true or it is not, if you do not maintain that position then "correct" it...otherwise your concession is more obvious...or would it be easier for me to dig through past posts of yours and show you where you "maintain" that position?

Only in your head.

how ironic

[_subgenius]

Because I'm a Mormon Priesthood holder.

well, that is more of a description, not a reason...but everyone reading understands your deflection...


but more importantly now....
since you can renounce and resign your Priesthood and membership and you have nothing but disdain for the church...
Why are you still a Mormon Priesthood holder?

hmmm...honestly i do not expect a sincere response here either....

nevertheless...your omissions to these questions provide the answer.

its the food orders isn't it?