Free Will

[_subgenius]

We are big bags of chemical reactions.

then my conclusion is valid, you have no ability to choose otherwise....thanks

[_Molok]

They have not surrendered their will...simply made choices in accordance with His will.
When you "agree" with someone you are not surrendering.

I think you may be confusing one's self with one's will.

Ok, let's go with this for a moment. From what you're saying here, I gather that knowing for certain that God exists, does not impede a person's free will. Why doesn't God reveal to everyone that he exists then? Not in vague, burning of the bosom ways, but revelation, descending from the heavens style? I can't think of any good reason, can you?

[_subgenius]

2 H2 + O2 will always yield 2 H2O

Genius could you explain your calculations?
I am no professor of chemistry but I would have thought that 2 H2 + O2 would yield 2 H2O2?

yes, it is apparent....the natural laws i mentioned before determine 2 H2O...always
in basic chemistry the "+" notes the reaction, its is not an algebraic function as you have "thought".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_reaction

Since you calculate 2 2 parts Hydrogen and 2 parts Oxygen?

perhaps you misread
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_entity

iron+oxygen=rust....always

Plus If Iron was kept in pure O2, without Hydrogen, would it rust?

but perhaps i relied on the colloquial too much for you on that example,
revise as follows:
iron+oxygen=iron oxide (rust)....always...and when iron oxide is hydrogenated=rust....always
either way and regardless of reactants, there is no "choice otherwise".

Is it not the Hydrogen2 and Oxygen1 that makes H2O?

Yes it is...you are assuming that the chemical formula behaves like an algebraic formula. It takes two molecules of the diatomic hydrogen gas, combined with one molecule of the diatomic oxygen gas to produce two molecules of water (there is a common problem with atoms, perhaps you remember, called full valence shells) - oxygen and hydrogen react with themselves initially, thus forming the H2 and O2 molecules...and in order to balance the chemical equation you would have the coefficient of 2 as i have shown.
That is the simplest formation of water.
But again, the chemical law still governs..the hydrogen molecule can not simply "choose" to not react...so, is the same lack of choice existing regardless of how complicated the reactions are...therefore if the human mind is simply the product of a chemical reactions, there is no ability to choose otherwise. There is no autonomy from any of the chemical reactions.

[_just me]

I don't understand the purpose of free will. One of the reasons people often give on this forum for not believing in God is that the could not believe that a just and loving God would allow so many people to live short, pointless lives full of suffering that most in the Western world could not fathom. The reason for this I most often hear from believers is that God cannot help these people because if God were to reveal himself to these people, and take a direct action in their lives, He would be taking away their free will.


Ok.

What about all the Latter Day Saints who know for certain that there is a God, because he communicates with them, comforts them, directs their lives? What about God appearing bodily to Joseph Smith? Isn't that interfering with their free will? The response I usually get to this is that these people have surrendered their free will to God, and they seek only to do His will.

Ok.

So we are given free will, just so we can give it back. What is the point of this? Why is free will such an important thing, if its ultimate purpose is to be given up? Why is that more important than preventing the suffering around the world?

It's an ignorant view of free will(if it exists). It's basically saying the more information you have the less freedom of choice you have.

That is such a great, concise way of putting it!

[_subgenius]

They have not surrendered their will...simply made choices in accordance with His will.
When you "agree" with someone you are not surrendering.

I think you may be confusing one's self with one's will.

Ok, let's go with this for a moment. From what you're saying here, I gather that knowing for certain that God exists, does not impede a person's free will.

agreed.
Just like knowing that fire will burn you does not prevent you from being able to choose to stick your hand in it.

Why doesn't God reveal to everyone that he exists then? Not in vague, burning of the bosom ways, but revelation, descending from the heavens style? I can't think of any good reason, can you?

That would remove faith from the equation, and arguably that is a significant aspect in our relationship with Him. Not in the sense that he is like the Wizard of Oz and asks that we simply not look behind the curtain, but rather as a personal experience. For example, is there a positive experience in your life where you have "leaped before you looked"?. I am sure that there has been both positive and negative experiences associated with such behavior, but does the value of that experience differ from a similar experience where you "knew" for certain?
I hesitate to use a magic analogy due to the cynics reading this.

[_Molok]

That would remove faith from the equation, and arguably that is a significant aspect in our relationship with Him. Not in the sense that he is like the Wizard of Oz and asks that we simply not look behind the curtain, but rather as a personal experience. For example, is there a positive experience in your life where you have "leaped before you looked"?. I am sure that there has been both positive and negative experiences associated with such behavior, but does the value of that experience differ from a similar experience where you "knew" for certain?
I hesitate to use a magic analogy due to the cynics reading this.

Sure, I've gotten a thrill from venturing out and doing something unknown to me, and some of those experiences have been very positive. I don't think that any benefits of faith would be more valueable to me than knowing, for certain, there is a God. Having faith in something that seems pretty certain to be false makes faith feel like an arbitrary hoop to jump through to me. Life seems hard enough without having to wonder if the God I'm serving is real.

[_subgenius]

That would remove faith from the equation, and arguably that is a significant aspect in our relationship with Him. Not in the sense that he is like the Wizard of Oz and asks that we simply not look behind the curtain, but rather as a personal experience. For example, is there a positive experience in your life where you have "leaped before you looked"?. I am sure that there has been both positive and negative experiences associated with such behavior, but does the value of that experience differ from a similar experience where you "knew" for certain?
I hesitate to use a magic analogy due to the cynics reading this.

Sure, I've gotten a thrill from venturing out and doing something unknown to me, and some of those experiences have been very positive. I don't think that any benefits of faith would be more valueable to me than knowing, for certain, there is a God. Having faith in something that seems pretty certain to be false makes faith feel like an arbitrary hoop to jump through to me. Life seems hard enough without having to wonder if the God I'm serving is real.

why bother to wonder? Is serving God causing your life undue strife? Would not serving Him provide you with a life without strife? If you die and there is nothingness would it have mattered that you served Him? Would serving God be a better option or worse option in this life?
These are all simple questions and reason, logic, and sense all reveal that serving God is the better wager..see Pascal's Wager


Ether 12:6 is a familiar verse in our church..but i feel that the end of that verse is often overlooked:
"......dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith."
This is echoed in the lectures on faith, where we read that it is by faith that we grow up believing in God, usually because our parents told us to...but if we maintain that faith, God manifests unto you...whereas your faith becomes knowledge. This is a significant issue among many of the bitter and cynical on this forum.
As to the question of why does God seem to allow a "trial of your faith"?
what comes to my mind is the simple notion that we are so often likely to never believe what we can not see...no matter the circumstance..our "self" demands it...and this selfish desire is counter to the nature of God and so we are unable to truly "see" Him until that desire is removed. If you Hebrews 11 you get a real sense of what it means to have faith, what the nature of action is....

[_PrickKicker]

Sub you change your beliefs to suit the topic you are debating...
And when you get things wrong you blag your way to try and convince people with links to mildly related topics, hoping to confuse people.
Hmm beginning to sound like your defence of your Religion too?

We are biological / chemical creatures,
Due to our biological and chemical brain structure certain sympathetic reactions effect us and are inevitable, through stimuli.
So it is true that some people are born to think, act and feel a certain way?

Example: genetic defects, or environmental / chemical problems during mitosis, excess alcohol or drugs during pregnancy resulting in physical and chemical / neurological imbalances in the brain / brains,
altering ones long term behaviour therefore having an impact on eternal progression. and also physical defects conjoined twins, there are no 2 separate spirits, just brains and therefore minds.

Some things are beyond choice, and therefore predestined, birth defects, life changing accidents or illness, natural disasters? or acts of GOD?
If they are acts of GOD then he is controlling everything and so knows everything including your choices, so are they really choices if he knows what you'll do?
if predestination exists then what is the purpose of life? if it doesn't then GOD is unable to plan anything, like Jesus Christ and Joseph Smiths (predestination)
to be the prophet of the restoration as contained in the Book of Mormon. surely life is not fair as GOD has intervened and therefore shown to be bias?

Do you still clinging to the medieval notion that evil spirits cause mental illness, disease and disability?
and that people make wrong choices because the devil and his evil spirits are retarding them?
Who hath sinned that this man be born blind?

Please do explain your Jesus logic?

[_Themis]

Where is the proof or even some evidence for this big bag of assertions?

So, you need "proof" that chemical reactions are bound by the natural laws of the universe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_law
Fundamental Chemical Laws
Charles' Law
Gay-Lussac's Law
Conservation of Mass
Conservation of Energy
Dalton's Law
Definite Composition
Dulong & Petit's Law
Faraday's Law
Henry's Law
Ideal Gas law
Periodic Law
etc...

I believe the above references are sufficient in proving that chemical reactions are predictable and unable to react "otherwise".

Are you suggesting that there is a manner that a human body can over-ride how one chemical will react with another?

So, if the human body and its existence is absolutely composed of only chemical reactions then these reactions are what "control" everything we do, everything we say, everything we feel, and everything we think....thus one chemical reaction is not capable of "choosing" how another chemical reaction will behave...for both reactions are predictable by the laws that govern them...they are incapable of reacting "otherwise"....they will always react the way they react.
For example:
2 H2 + O2 will always yield 2 H2O
it is impossible for the above reaction to "choose" to yield anything other than 2 H2O - the product of that reaction will always be the same.
iron+oxygen=rust....always

So, with that being said, by definition, the ability to choose otherwise must be supernatural.

I asked for evidence or proof of a big bag of assertions, not another big bag of assertions. Part of those big bag of assertions includes your assertions about supernatural abilities. Also why do you think people are still debating free will, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.

[_Themis]

That would remove faith from the equation, and arguably that is a significant aspect in our relationship with Him. Not in the sense that he is like the Wizard of Oz and asks that we simply not look behind the curtain, but rather as a personal experience. For example, is there a positive experience in your life where you have "leaped before you looked"?. I am sure that there has been both positive and negative experiences associated with such behavior, but does the value of that experience differ from a similar experience where you "knew" for certain?
I hesitate to use a magic analogy due to the cynics reading this.

Sure, I've gotten a thrill from venturing out and doing something unknown to me, and some of those experiences have been very positive. I don't think that any benefits of faith would be more valueable to me than knowing, for certain, there is a God. Having faith in something that seems pretty certain to be false makes faith feel like an arbitrary hoop to jump through to me. Life seems hard enough without having to wonder if the God I'm serving is real.

I always love how it always goes to blind faith which is concerned about the existence of something, rather then faith in something. Of course they can't explain why some they believe get faith in existence removed if it is so bad.