Plan of Salvation?

[_son of Ishmael]

You guys just don't understand the Plan of Salvation. We are here to be tested to see if we will believe and have faith with no evidence. If we can show we will, then we fail the test. This means it won't matter what God or religion you have faith in without good evidence.

Yeah. The real test is to see who will use their intellect and BS detectors when told to beleive in things they can't see. Those who profess to have faith in things that can't be proven actually fail the test and are not allowed to progress

[_Themis]

You guys just don't understand the Plan of Salvation. We are here to be tested to see if we will believe and have faith with no evidence. If we can show we will, then we fail the test. This means it won't matter what God or religion you have faith in without good evidence.

Yeah. The real test is to see who will use their intellect and BS detectors when told to beleive in things they can't see. Those who profess to have faith in things that can't be proven actually fail the test and are not allowed to progress

It really is a beautiful plan. Unlike the LDS plan where the vast majority never get tested, since they will never here about it, this plan has everyone tested that can at least get to an age of understanding.

[_LittleNipper]

I just registered yesterday and this is my first post.

A little about me first. I was born and raised Mormon. Descended from Charles C. Rich, one of Brigham's apostles. I served a partial mission in Oregon Portland. It was during 1993. I came home after 8 months because I had lost my testimony. I just couldn't teach others something I did not believe myself. The purge of the September Six had an effect. I had read Quinn, Lavina Anderson and Maxine Hanks. They had not written anything to merit excommunication. I realized then that the Church was no different than any other. It was the Catholic Church excommunicating Galileo, only now it's the 20th century. I had my name removed shortly after returning home. My family--mother, brother, sister and their families--are all still Temple going faithful. I have another sister who has left recently and no longer believes. She couldn't take what her three daughters were being taught in Primary any more.

Anyway, there's something about the Plan of Salvation that I don't get.

Supposedly, we were all present during a great war in heaven. Some sided with Jesus, some with Lucifer, others were less valiant (that’s a whole other thread).

Now, if we could make decisions whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer when we had direct evidence of their existence, why did our Heavenly Father send us out to be tested a second time? I learned in Sunday School that this life was mainly to gain a physical body and to test our faith (and to learn how to suffer?). But why the need for a SECOND test of whether we would follow Heavenly Father? Obviously, we could choose right from wrong in His presence. Was he not satisfied with our loyalty the first time? Did He want to only have the TRULY loving children return to live with Him someday? What kind of parent acts like that? Why were we able to make a decision based in free agency in the ABSENCE of faith but have to live ONLY by faith now in order to prove our agency?

Another way to think about it: why are we living in punishment for someone else's sin? Adam and Eve sinned by breaking Heavenly Father’s commandment to not eat the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. In fact, could it really have been a sin? Lucifer gives them the fruit because he’s trying to help Heavenly Father. Lucifer is trying to get back into Father’s favor. Lucifer states he is only doing what has been done on other worlds. If it wasn’t for Lucifer, the whole plan would have ground to a screeching halt.

Anyway, why are we all being punished because of Adam’s transgression? We are all born in sin. (Just because Mormon theology doesn’t call it Original Sin doesn’t mean Mormons don’t believe in it. Mormons might not believe a baby is born in sin, they just believe Original Sin settles into a person’s DNA at age 8.) We live by the sweat of our brow. We suffer and pain. We live outside of Heavenly Father’s presence. We die. Why weren't the rest of us created in the Garden of Eden and given the choice of eating the fruit for ourselves? Some may have chosen to stay in the garden paradise while others chose to take that step out into the cruel world. The Plan of Salvation could have even been set up as a greater-risk-equals-greater-reward scenario. If you chose to stay in the Garden, you automatically inherit the Terrestrial reward. If you choose to risk being cast out, you can gain the greater Celestial reward but you also risk succumbing to the Telestial reward. There’s no need of Outer Darkness.

Sorry for the wall of text. I've been itching to get some other opinions.

The Universe and some god's plan according to Mormonism is entirely in error, and that is why you don't understand it and why there are so many holes in it. The Simple plan of Salvation according to the Christianity, the Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ is as follows:
God’s Simple Plan of Salvation ---- see: http://www.godssimpleplan.org/gsps-english.html
My Friend: I am asking you the most important question of life. Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? It is not a question of how good you are, nor if you are a church member, but are you saved? Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?

God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye must be born again.”

In the Bible God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

First, my friend, you must realize you are a sinner. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to death. “For the wages [payment] of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell.

“ . . . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

But God loved you so much He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. “ . . . He hath made Him [Jesus, Who knew no sin] to be sin for us . . . that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus had to shed His blood and die. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev. 17:11). “ . . . without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]” (Hebrews 9:22).

“ . . . God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie.

My friend, “God . . . commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, and also agrees with what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: “ . . . ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .’ ”

Simply believe on Him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected. His resurrection powerfully assures that the believer can claim everlasting life when Jesus is received as Savior.

“But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12).

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13).

Whosoever includes you. Shall be saved means not maybe, nor can, but shall be saved.

Surely, you realize you are a sinner. Right now, wherever you are, repenting, lift your heart to God in prayer.

In Luke 18:13, the sinner prayed: “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Just pray: “Oh God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when He died on the Cross. I believe His shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection were for me. I now receive Him as my Savior. I thank You for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of salvation and everlasting life, because of Your merciful grace. Amen.”

Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!

God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.

You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.

If His plan is not perfectly clear, read this tract over and over, without laying it down, until you understand it. Your soul is worth more than all the world.

“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).

Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.

God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth:


Pray -- you talk to God.
Read your Bible -- God talks to you.
Witness -- you talk for God.
You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)

“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32).

[_Jason003]

You already know the answer to your own question. This is an opportunity. The only point of this life is to get a physical body, everything else is a bonus.

If the only point of this life is to get a physical body, why weren't we each created inside the Garden and given the opportunity to partake of the Fruit of Knowledge ourselves individually? We did Adam (Michael) make that decision for all of us? Being created in the Garden fulfilled the physical body requirement. We then could simply be translated in the twinkling of an eye into the Terrestrial Kingdom.

To exist in this form is to know both joy and suffering. It is just part of being.

So no one but H(eavenly) F(ather) felt sorrow or suffered to see the 1/3 cast out? There was no emotion in the debate between Lucifer and Jehovah? Aren't there Patriarchal Blessings that intimate their recipients suffered over the loss of those who followed Lucifer or felt joy over seeing Jehovah triumph? Obviously, we knew sorrow and joy without physical bodies.

There is no SECOND test. That is not the point of this existence.

But there IS a second test. The 1/3 who chose Lucifer over Jehovah failed to claim their first estate. We passed the FIRST test, received our first estates and will be judged as to how faithful we were through the SECOND test. If you're not faithful enough, you don't get to return to live with HF. That seems to me to be a second test.

Yes, that is why we inherited this form.

Not sure what form you refer to. So HF doubted our loyalty? That's why we doubt?

All of us will be saved and exalted, except those that rebel against God as Satan and his followers did. It is a FREE gift. You simply don't understand Mormonism.

I'll grant you that Mormon theology can be read in that way. Though I would specify that resurrection is a free gift, not necessarily exaltation. Only those who reach the Celestial Kingdom are truly exalted and return to HF's presence and become like him. If the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms consist of exalted beings, what exactly is their day like? They aren't married. They don't have kids. They just live in paradise day in and day out?

Again, you are mistaken. No unclean thing can be in the presense of God and it would be WORSE for them to be there than apart. They are unwilling to do as God commands and so it is better for them to be separate from God.

So basically, this life is HF's version of honor killing his children? It's barbaric when a strict Muslim family stones their daughter to death because she violated a religious law they believe in. How is that different than HF's Plan of Salvation? HF's plan calls for eternal death from His presence.

There is NO free agency (at least as you seem to think about it). We are going to do what we are going to do. God already knows what we are going to do because he can see what we have done, are doing and will do. It is just a natural consequence of our space-time and the physics of relativity. We are simply here to exist and choose to either follow God or not. But we can not fool God. And I'm sure all this was shown to us before we came and what we were going be and choose. Regardless of that, we chose to be and come anyway.

Wow. So we are all predetermined? That makes the Plan of Salvation even goofier. Free agency--the freedom to choose the right or wrong--was always one of the big points of the Plan that I was taught. It sounds like you're saying that HF knew that I was going to leave the Church because it's just my nature and circumstance of where I exist in history. So, what's the point of the Plan again?

You are simply confused. Again, Mormons do not believe in original sin. God already knew what Adam and Eve were going to do and anticipated that. Otherwise, he wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. Adam and Eve chose to do what they did so WE COULD BE.

HF put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden because He knew Adam and Eve would eat it? Huh? Adam and Eve chose to do what they did. How does Adam’s choice become MY choice? Why aren't we given the same right to choose they had? Mormonism says that by virtue of the fact of my existence, I assented to that choice AND to have that choice wiped from my memory. Isn't that convenient?

And degress of glory and no glory is something we choose by either doing what God asks or not. The DEGREE of our willingness to follow God is just part of our nature. It is what you are. If you are willing to seek God, speak with him and do all he asks and does - then you will achieve the highest degree. If you are unwilling, you will obtain a lesser degree.

So based on my skeptical nature, my unwillingness to do all HF asks is what I am? Leaving the Church and setting myself up for a lesser degree of reward is just part of my skeptical nature?

[_Tobin]

You already know the answer to your own question. This is an opportunity. The only point of this life is to get a physical body, everything else is a bonus.

If the only point of this life is to get a physical body, why weren't we each created inside the Garden and given the opportunity to partake of the Fruit of Knowledge ourselves individually? We did Adam (Michael) make that decision for all of us? Being created in the Garden fulfilled the physical body requirement. We then could simply be translated in the twinkling of an eye into the Terrestrial Kingdom.

We partake of the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil when we are born into this life. And Adam didn't make any decisions for us so simply being born in the garden fulfills and does nothing for us. We must born into this life and DIE as part the plan of the salvation. Mortality is a necessary condition.

To exist in this form is to know both joy and suffering. It is just part of being.

So no one but H(eavenly) F(ather) felt sorrow or suffered to see the 1/3 cast out? There was no emotion in the debate between Lucifer and Jehovah?Aren't there Patriarchal Blessings that intimate their recipients suffered over the loss of those who followed Lucifer or felt joy over seeing Jehovah triumph? Obviously, we knew sorrow and joy without physical bodies.

You are an odd one. Where did that all of that come from? Bizarre. Next you'll be wondering why the moon isn't really made from cheese I suppose?

There is no SECOND test. That is not the point of this existence.

But there IS a second test. The 1/3 who chose Lucifer over Jehovah failed to claim their first estate. We passed the FIRST test, received our first estates and will be judged as to how faithful we were through the SECOND test. If you're not faithful enough, you don't get to return to live with HF. That seems to me to be a second test.

There are NO tests. There is simply a choice. Either follow God or don't. It's that simple. How far you are willing to follow God is up to you.

Yes, that is why we inherited this form.

Not sure what form you refer to. So HF doubted our loyalty? That's why we doubt?

As I've already said, mortality and having this physical form is what WE desired and is part of the plan of salvation.

All of us will be saved and exalted, except those that rebel against God as Satan and his followers did. It is a FREE gift. You simply don't understand Mormonism.

I'll grant you that Mormon theology can be read in that way. Though I would specify that resurrection is a free gift, not necessarily exaltation. Only those who reach the Celestial Kingdom are truly exalted and return to HF's presence and become like him. If the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms consist of exalted beings, what exactly is their day like? They aren't married. They don't have kids. They just live in paradise day in and day out?

That's life. Deal with it. You either choose to do what God asks or you choose not to. God can't make you be perfect or make you do as he asks.

Again, you are mistaken. No unclean thing can be in the presense of God and it would be WORSE for them to be there than apart. They are unwilling to do as God commands and so it is better for them to be separate from God.

So basically, this life is HF's version of honor killing his children? It's barbaric when a strict Muslim family stones their daughter to death because she violated a religious law they believe in. How is that different than HF's Plan of Salvation? HF's plan calls for eternal death from His presence.

Huh? Being separated from God is being degraded or a form of decay. That is something you choose to do to yourself. God isn't forcing you to make that choice. It is up to you to choose to return to God if you want, but you need to do as he asks.

There is NO free agency (at least as you seem to think about it). We are going to do what we are going to do. God already knows what we are going to do because he can see what we have done, are doing and will do. It is just a natural consequence of our space-time and the physics of relativity. We are simply here to exist and choose to either follow God or not. But we can not fool God. And I'm sure all this was shown to us before we came and what we were going be and choose. Regardless of that, we chose to be and come anyway.

Wow. So we are all predetermined? That makes the Plan of Salvation even goofier. Free agency--the freedom to choose the right or wrong--was always one of the big points of the Plan that I was taught. It sounds like you're saying that HF knew that I was going to leave the Church because it's just my nature and circumstance of where I exist in history. So, what's the point of the Plan again?

The future is already written. You are merely here to gain a physical form and follow God. So do not think for a moment you can fool God by pretending to do so. If you wish to follow God, then be dedicated and DO SO, but don't try to fake it. Clearly, you tried to pretend and that hasn't worked out very well for you so far.

You are simply confused. Again, Mormons do not believe in original sin. God already knew what Adam and Eve were going to do and anticipated that. Otherwise, he wouldn't have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden. Adam and Eve chose to do what they did so WE COULD BE.

HF put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden because He knew Adam and Eve would eat it? Huh? Adam and Eve chose to do what they did so we DID NOT have to choose for ourselves? How does Adam’s choice become MY choice? Mormonism says that by virtue of the fact of my existence, I assented to that choice AND to have that choice wiped from my memory. Isn't that convenient?

As I've said, you make your own choices and you are responsible for them. You can choose to follow God or not, that is YOUR decision. Don't whine about it and claim Adam and Eve put you in this situation. Deal with it.

And degress of glory and no glory is something we choose by either doing what God asks or not. The DEGREE of our willingness to follow God is just part of our nature. It is what you are. If you are willing to seek God, speak with him and do all he asks and does - then you will achieve the highest degree. If you are unwilling, you will obtain a lesser degree.

So based on my skeptical nature, my unwillingness to do all HF asks is what I am? Leaving the Church and setting myself up for a lesser degree of reward is just part of my skeptical nature?

There are two sides. Those that choose to seek and follow God and those that don't. You seem to be willing to do the latter. So be it. I think it is rather foolish and short-sighted of you, but good luck with that.

[_Drifting]

This...

Do not trust your feelings.

Seems to be at odds with this...

Read your Bible -- God talks to you.

[_subgenius]

This...

Do not trust your feelings.

Seems to be at odds with this...

Read your Bible -- God talks to you.

how exactly is it at odds? (how do you propose that apples are at odds with oranges?)

[Guest]

...

[_PrickKicker]

@ subgenius ... you might want to start getting a little worried about your fixation with fruit.

Nevermind the fruit you read what he said about Dolphins and Rabbits!

[_LittleNipper]

This...

Do not trust your feelings.

Seems to be at odds with this...

Read your Bible -- God talks to you.

God speaks through His Holy Word ---- The Bible. He tells us what He likes and dislikes. He explains why we need salvation and who Jesus Christ is.