Adam Is Our God, Brigham Young, General Conf., April 1852

[_gdemetz]

Lost in Provo? It is not a cop out. It is simply the truth!If some here could be in the spirit of true revelation just for a little while, then they would surely know that the church is true! Drifting, Adam is not God the Father.

[_Franktalk]

A more interesting question is what led BY to think Adam was our God.

That is the question. Obviously BY is not some nut job he really wanted to know how it all worked. I think we all seek that information. I think that he and many others have received some glimpse of the truth but it was blurry and made no sense to his mind. So he explained as best he could. I think we should be careful how we look at these kinds of statements.

I think that many people have some a partial view of truth. Why do we assume that what they say is a perfect picture of truth? If the church has said this then they have set the stage for disappointment. Truth is hard to find and is not something that falls in your lap. If that is your expectation ( in general terms) then a short half measure of seeking will bring its own rewards.

I like your question and my comments are meant to be general and not pointed at you.

[_Franktalk]

Who said anything about Doctrine? This is simply a talk given over the pulpit in General Conference by a revered prophet of God. I think we should listen to what he has to say. He is the mouthpiece of God.

That is only true if God speaks through him. BY did have his own opinions. Did he start off with thus sayeth the Lord?

Do we muzzle prophets so they can't speak freely as men? I think that many people who criticize the prophets should do a study of them first. I suggest Daniel as a starter. Much of what he wrote he had no idea what it meant. Others are shown things and can't explain what they were exposed to. With this in mind how can we hold to every word and expect perfection? I think much is left out so the Holy Ghost can fill it all in. But if someone does not have the Holy Ghost then scripture can be very confusing.

[_Franktalk]

So when it's convenient, a prophet is a prophet and when it's not, he's just a man? It sounds like cop out to me, a simple way of dismissing comments by a prophet or any GA.

It is my personal opinion that much of scripture is layered. Where many problems come in is when someone attempts to discuss a higher layer without first laying the groundwork. To bridge the gap requires the Holy Ghost. And what is revealed can be at odds with the literal meaning of a statement from a GA. Just trust and move forward. It does make sense at some point. Spiritual sense not worldly sense.

[_Fence Sitter]

That is only true if God speaks through him. BY did have his own opinions. Did he start off with thus sayeth the Lord?

Do we muzzle prophets so they can't speak freely as men? I think that many people who criticize the prophets should do a study of them first. I suggest Daniel as a starter. Much of what he wrote he had no idea what it meant. Others are shown things and can't explain what they were exposed to. With this in mind how can we hold to every word and expect perfection? I think much is left out so the Holy Ghost can fill it all in. But if someone does not have the Holy Ghost then scripture can be very confusing.

Hi Frank,

I think the fact that BY introduced Adam God into the endowment ceremony before his death is a good indication he viewed it as doctrine.

I suggest this article for more reading on the subject.

David John Buerger, "The Adam-God Doctrine".

As far as my previous question as to why BY taught it, my opinion is that he was trying to further ideas he believed that Joseph Smith was developing when Joseph Smith died. Joseph Smith was very interested in restoring ideas he thought traced back to Adam and was a genius when it came to incorporating information around him into his theology. I can only begin to imagine how far he would have taken certain ideas had he lived. I think you can see ties to Adam God in a lot of different areas that interested Joseph Smith such as the Kabbalah, Masonry, early temple practices of adoption and sealing, The Council of the Fifty and Joseph being anointed as a King, Priest and Ruler, Book of Abraham, descriptions of unpublished translations of the Joseph Smith papyri, Joseph Smith pursuit of the Pure Adamic Language, his fascination with the Egyptian language as being closest to the Adamic language, the EAG, and so on.

I think BY was just trying to continue revealing new doctrine just like Joseph Smith did, he just wasn't very good at it. As a result we have this mess called the Adam God theory.

There are several other articles that deal with these subjects that I recommend.

Samuel Brown, "Joseph (Smith) in Egypt: Babel, Hieroglyphs, and the Pure Language of Eden".
D Michael Quinn, "The Council of the Fifty and It's Members, 1844-1945".
Joseph A Stapley, "Adoptive Sealing Ritual in Mormonism".
Lance S. Owens, "Joseph Smith and the Kabbalah: The Occult Connection".
Michael W. Homer, "Similarity of Priesthood in Masonry": The Relationship Between Freemasonry and Mormonsim".
Christopher C. Smith, "The Dependence of Abraham 1:1-3 on the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar".
Christopher C. Smith, "The Inspired Fictionalization of the 1835 United Firm Revelations".

[_Franktalk]

Fence Sitter,

I have to say that learning about God and learning about our self comes about in steps. One day we look about and realize that the universe did not make itself and we start to seek that power that caused what we see about us. I believe that many listen to the various religious groups about the earth and start to believe in God. The religions come in many forms but all speak about beings beyond man. For me I have faith in the God of the Bible. But I respect those who have faith in God by any other name. The confusion of man is a given but the seeking is a righteous act. Then at some point the inward man can come in communication contact with the Holy Spirit. I do not think that the Holy Spirit only speaks to those who follow certain doctrines of man. The Spirit of God is in all of us and it can manifest in many ways. Those who seek light and not darkness can get help along their path. Those who seek darkness or allow darkness to swallow them up can not see the light because the light will not go to darkness. But any glimmer of light is magnified and darkness can be driven away. At some point on your path one must become aware that each of us has a soul or spirit. We must begin to walk in the spirit in order to advance beyond the first few steps. The light of Christ is in all of us and may have been a little different in Adam. Remember that he was divided into man and woman and he existed before the fall. So exactly what his state was I sure don't know. But I do know that spiritual things are not understood by men who walk in the flesh. So when I read some scriptures I read them one way and others see a different message. I also accept that many messages can come from the same words in scripture. Each of us is on our own path and the Holy Ghost will witness what each of us needs. I accept that the message may be different between different men. I also believe that many things said or written may be hidden from our understanding until God determines it is time for a truth to be revealed. For those things I pass over them and move along to other areas that are more fruitful. If man forces an understanding and is not guided by the Holy Ghost then we can all rest assure that understanding is wrong. I believe that the Adam God talks are too spiritual for the masses. Having said that I believe that BY was clumsy in his attempt to convey something that should not have been talked about.

[_Fence Sitter]

Fence Sitter,

I have to say that learning about God and learning about our self comes about in steps. One day we look about and realize that the universe did not make itself and we start to seek that power that caused what we see about us. I believe that many listen to the various religious groups about the earth and start to believe in God. The religions come in many forms but all speak about beings beyond man. For me I have faith in the God of the Bible. But I respect those who have faith in God by any other name. The confusion of man is a given but the seeking is a righteous act. Then at some point the inward man can come in communication contact with the Holy Spirit. I do not think that the Holy Spirit only speaks to those who follow certain doctrines of man. The Spirit of God is in all of us and it can manifest in many ways. Those who seek light and not darkness can get help along their path. Those who seek darkness or allow darkness to swallow them up can not see the light because the light will not go to darkness. But any glimmer of light is magnified and darkness can be driven away. At some point on your path one must become aware that each of us has a soul or spirit. We must begin to walk in the spirit in order to advance beyond the first few steps. The light of Christ is in all of us and may have been a little different in Adam. Remember that he was divided into man and woman and he existed before the fall. So exactly what his state was I sure don't know. But I do know that spiritual things are not understood by men who walk in the flesh. So when I read some scriptures I read them one way and others see a different message. I also accept that many messages can come from the same words in scripture. Each of us is on our own path and the Holy Ghost will witness what each of us needs. I accept that the message may be different between different men. I also believe that many things said or written may be hidden from our understanding until God determines it is time for a truth to be revealed. For those things I pass over them and move along to other areas that are more fruitful. If man forces an understanding and is not guided by the Holy Ghost then we can all rest assure that understanding is wrong. I believe that the Adam God talks are too spiritual for the masses. Having said that I believe that BY was clumsy in his attempt to convey something that should not have been talked about.

Frank,

Forgive me but I am not a believer at all. So I am happy to talk about the historical aspects of what BY did and did not teach. Beyond that to each his own.

If you want to understand BY and Joseph Smith better, those references will help. If you are taking the Tobin approach, wherein historical issues are overridden by direct personal knowledge of the divine, then we won't have much to talk about.

My best to you and Jo

FS

[_Franktalk]

Fence Sitter,

Whether you believe or not my answers are what they are. I pretty much wear my beliefs out in the open. The mystical or spiritual side of life is a precious thing to me but it is recent in my life so I know how it is to be surrounded by the physical world. I can relate on any level but if I restrict my conversation to just the physical world then no interest in the spiritual will manifest. In a strict scholarly examination of scripture much is lost or interpreted in error. In fact those who read the Bible typically read in error as well. It takes some time to read the scriptures as a whole and with the help of the Holy Ghost. These ideas may be foreign to you but those ideas of scripture are what they are. I make no excuse for my knowledge.

To examine the scriptures as a topic of scholarly work is self rewarding but it will not bring you any closer to any universal truth. A scholarly examination of scripture does not explain the emotional attachment that many have to scripture and it does not explain the power of conviction to the point of martyrdom. If one just says that an idea can lead to conviction then there are many ideas which hold no power and some that do. Religion has been the cause of millions of deaths and that number will one day greatly expand. In the face of science and reason devotion still holds the heart of many. And the world holds an unreasonable hatred for things of Christ. That study alone should draw you into a curious examination of the power of scripture. But I know as well the power of the world.

[_Tobin]

Frank,

Forgive me but I am not a believer at all. So I am happy to talk about the historical aspects of what BY did and did not teach. Beyond that to each his own.

If you want to understand BY and Joseph Smith better, those references will help. If you are taking the Tobin approach, wherein historical issues are overridden by direct personal knowledge of the divine, then we won't have much to talk about.

My best to you and Jo

FS

That's interesting FS. You aren't going to have much to discuss with any "true" Mormon then. Since Mormonism is not about simply believing and discussing whether the historical claims or even taking the "word" of Joseph Smith and company claimed is true, but instead it is about seeking and speaking with God yourself to determine for yourself whether what they claimed is true or not. If your standard is to discount God in these matter and what we are told by the Lord, then there really is no discussion possible between a Mormon and their critics then. And all that is left is the simple request for you to come to God, seek him, speak with him, learn from him and do as he asks.

[_Fence Sitter]

That's interesting FS. You aren't going to have much to discuss with any "true" Mormon then. Since Mormonism is not about simply believing and discussing whether the historical claims or even taking the "word" of Joseph Smith and company claimed is true, but instead it is about seeking and speaking with God yourself to determine for yourself whether what they claimed is true or not. If your standard is to discount God in these matter and what we are told by the Lord, then there really is no discussion possible between a Mormon and their critics then. And all that is left is the simple request for you to come to God, seek him, speak with him, learn from him and do as he asks.

I also don't have many discussions with true Scotsmen.