Plan of Salvation?

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_Franktalk
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _Franktalk »

Quasimodo wrote:OMG! Maybe the two of you could come up with exactly what God had in mind and explain it to the rest of the world.

I admire your confidence. Personally, I would never presume to know the mind of God.


I only know what we know of history today. I also know what it says in scripture. That is all. The mind of God may or may not be reflective in what we know. It is possible that the mind of God is so far removed from our ability to understand that little is connected to scripture or our history. I appreciate your concern.
_LittleNipper
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _LittleNipper »

The only ones who attempt to put God in a box are those which imagine that God needs humanity. God doesn't need anyone or anything. God is beyond anything we can imagine possible and triune is just one of those complex things man is too little to comprehend. The Old Testament was mostly written in Hebrew. The New Testament was mostly written in Greek. The Temple text that Jesus read and taught from to the priests at Jerusalem at age 12 was entirely Masoretic Text. And just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I know everything and don't make mistakes; however, I'm not so sure Mormons can sympathize with such a concept.
_LittleNipper
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _LittleNipper »

Franktalk wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:......That said, isn't it likely that God Himself would rather have the Bible translated from the original language instead of a Greek translation from the original language?.....


Actually no. What is very likely is that God knowing the Jews were going to change scripture provided a separate path for the Word of God. In fact two paths. In fact four paths. Know your history and you would not state such nonsense.

The word which was in the Americas.
The Samaritan Torah
The dead sea scrolls.
The Septuagint.

The Jews have made many mistakes over the centuries; however, one of them is not changing scripture. They did add to the Law in an "effort" to clearify some issues; however, if anyone tampered with scripture they were likely Gnostic and I feel Mormonism follows that same path.
_moksha
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _moksha »

Jason003 wrote:Now, if we could make decisions whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer when we had direct evidence of their existence, why did our Heavenly Father send us out to be tested a second time? But why the need for a SECOND test of whether we would follow Heavenly Father? Obviously, we could choose right from wrong in His presence. Was he not satisfied with our loyalty the first time?


The Heaven War presented a test of both loyalty and combat agility, but wasn't really a test of adaptability and survival in an impromtu environment. Could we be clever enough to adapt the Kobiashi Maru to our own ends? Could we take our belief structures by the horns and improvise when necessary? Joseph Smith wrote a good survival and how to guide for such a situation.

Hope that helps.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Franktalk
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _Franktalk »

LittleNipper wrote:The Jews have made many mistakes over the centuries; however, one of them is not changing scripture. They did add to the Law in an "effort" to clearify some issues; however, if anyone tampered with scripture they were likely Gnostic and I feel Mormonism follows that same path.


Keep drinking the koolaid. I hear the the orange stuff is the best.
_jo1952
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _jo1952 »

LittleNipper wrote:The only ones who attempt to put God in a box are those which imagine that God needs humanity. God doesn't need anyone or anything. God is beyond anything we can imagine possible and triune is just one of those complex things man is too little to comprehend. The Old Testament was mostly written in Hebrew. The New Testament was mostly written in Greek. The Temple text that Jesus read and taught from to the priests at Jerusalem at age 12 was entirely Masoretic Text. And just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I know everything and don't make mistakes; however, I'm not so sure Mormons can sympathize with such a concept.


Who makes the claim that God needs humanity? Can you provide a CFR for that?

Also, what about the inconsistencies in what the Bible's Prophets taught vs what the B of M's Prophets taught? You have made the claim; now back it up. If you are unable to back it up, then your claim is meaningless.

You also have ignored the fact that the Old Testament is filled with examples of the vices you accuse the B of M to contain as though they were unique to the B of M.

Also, how do you know Jesus used the Masoretic Text? I'll need a CFR for that as well. From your own Wiki post, the Masoretic Text did not even exist while Jesus walked the earth. In fact, the Wiki article on the Septuagint states that for 200 years before Christ, it was the Greek Septuagint that was being used by the Hebrews. Here is more of what Wiki has to say about the Septuagint and its use during the time of Christ and the Apostles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

Christian use (the bolding is mine); also I have inserted my own [comment].

The Early Christian Church used the Greek texts[29] since Greek was a lingua franca of the Roman Empire at the time, and the language of the Greco-Roman Church (Aramaic was the language of Syriac Christianity, which used the Targums). The relationship between the apostolic use of the Old Testament, for example, the Septuagint and the now lost Hebrew texts (though to some degree and in some form carried on in Masoretic tradition [which was not created until after Christ and the Apostles]) is complicated. The Septuagint seems to have been a major source for the Apostles, but it is not the only one. St. Jerome offered, for example, Matt 2:15 and 2:23, John 19:37, John 7:38, 1 Cor. 2:9.[30] as examples not found in the Septuagint, but in Hebrew texts. (Matt 2:23 is not present in current Masoretic tradition either, though according to St. Jerome it was in Isaiah 11:1.) Furthermore, the New Testament writers, when citing the Jewish scriptures or when quoting Jesus doing so, freely used the Greek translation, implying that Jesus, his Apostles and their followers considered it reliable.[2][19][31]


by the way, if you haven't been able to ascertain it yet from my own comments, I fully admit that I don't know everything. Further, I have made it quite clear that Mormons make mistakes just like everybody else. It appears you enjoy hitting your head against walls which don't exist anywhere except in your own mind. Yet you are wont to try to convert everyone to YOUR belief system, even though your comments and beliefs are inconsistent within themselves and you are blind to it. What type of credibility are you presenting which would cause another person to follow you? Especially when you keep avoiding answering the tough questions? When you can't explain how your own beliefs deal with those questions, and so you ignore them, I do not think there will be many individuals on these boards who are going to choose to change their current stance; they are going to want the answers to those questions.

I am not here for the purpose of trying to convert anybody. I try to give an honest look at what scriptures say, as well as encourage people to seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost and NOT man's teachings. I do not suggest that they need to belong to ANY particular religious institution. OTOH, you want people to believe what man has taught you, which forces you to overlook so many and various passages in the Bible altogether. And then you encourage them to accept Christ in accordance with your beliefs only; not whatever beliefs they might have revealed to them directly from God and the Holy Ghost.

Meh....this is the place you are at in your journey. A person cannot "hear" until he is able to hear. I used to be where you are. I just wish there had more information available at my fingertips as perhaps I would have progressed more quickly; but this was long before the Internet. At least I have been able to present a little of what has been revealed to me; and it is not in conflict with the Bible...nor does it require that ANY of the Bible be discarded.

Blessings,

jo
_jo1952
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _jo1952 »

LittleNipper wrote:
The Jews have made many mistakes over the centuries; however, one of them is not changing scripture. They did add to the Law in an "effort" to clearify some issues; however, if anyone tampered with scripture they were likely Gnostic and I feel Mormonism follows that same path.


The source YOU provided from Wiki in support of your stand disagrees with your above comment.

You also misunderstand what a current "Gnostic" path respresents. It is a spiritual path which encourages people to seek and follow Christ in a spiritual manner....much like Paul tried to get members to do. It allows for spiritual experiencing of the Holy Ghost; it is not a set of rules or dogma or creeds made up by man. It is a pure form of following Christ in accordance with His own spiritual teachings; i.e., whenever He said "he that has ears let him hear", as opposed to a milk understanding and following of His teachings. It also incorporates the Kabbalah with updated teachings from Christ Himself; In other words, a Christianized Kabbalah. In ancient times among Jewish religious leaders, the Kabbalah was orally handed down throughout the age of mankind. It represented higher teachings not taught to the general population. Rather, it was taught to leaders who had reached a certain age and number of years of experience, as it was believed they would be better prepared and able to bear the higher teachings.

I would propose that you do some detective work on Gnosticism as well, since what you have been taught about it has not been the truth about it. The RCC turned gnostic into a "dirty" word due to her own Agenda of controlling what people were allowed to believe. Unfortunately, her deceit remains with us today.

Blessings,

jo
_Drifting
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _Drifting »

Franktalk wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:......That said, isn't it likely that God Himself would rather have the Bible translated from the original language instead of a Greek translation from the original language?.....


Actually no. What is very likely is that God knowing the Jews were going to change scripture provided a separate path for the Word of God. In fact two paths. In fact four paths. Know your history and you would not state such nonsense.

The word which was in the Americas.
The Samaritan Torah
The dead sea scrolls.
The Septuagint.


Did God know that Joseph was going to cock the job up by copying large parts of the KJV of the Bible and then go 'off piste' with scriptures of his own invention such as the Book of Abraham? Did he know that Joseph was going to bring shame on His restored gospel by playing hide the sausage with ladies who weren't his own wife? Did God know that Joseph was going to disrespect his first wife Emma and her family by doing the equivalent of what a certain maths teacher in the UK has done with one of his students?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_PrickKicker
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Re: Plan of Salvation?

Post by _PrickKicker »

Doctrine and Covenants 5:4
4 And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished.

Doctrine and Covenants 10:13
13 For he hath put into their hearts to do this, that by lying they may say they have caught you in the words which you have pretended to translate.

pretend? or Pre-tend?

Kinderhooks Anyone?
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
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