It's not the ?????what????? but it's the ?????who?????

[Guest]

...

[_LittleNipper]

God did not use a 19th century charlatan to bring forth truth, the Lord would not select someone like Smith, this would be a complete breakdown in reason and logic, after all is man not Intelligence?

How do you know? You've never spoken with God directly. That is the whole point to Mormonism to start with - ask God if he talked with Joseph Smith and go with what God tells you directly, face-to-face. I'm sure Joseph Smith would be more than willing to accept that result instead of your assumptions about what God did or did not do.

Actually, God does use such people to drive believers even more fervantly into the Word. When the Book of Mormon came out, many more Christians were driven to read their Bible more closely and prayerfully looking for understanding and truth. It isn't the Mormonism that comes from God, it was the backlash of Biblical understanding that was and is...

[_Tobin]

How do you know? You've never spoken with God directly. That is the whole point to Mormonism to start with - ask God if he talked with Joseph Smith and go with what God tells you directly, face-to-face. I'm sure Joseph Smith would be more than willing to accept that result instead of your assumptions about what God did or did not do.

Actually, God does use such people to drive believers even more fervantly into the Word. When the Book of Mormon came out, many more Christians were driven to read their Bible more closely and prayerfully looking for understanding and truth. It isn't the Mormonism that comes from God, it was the backlash of Biblical understanding that was and is...

I've yet to hear any Biblical understanding from you that is remotely enligthening. On the one hand, we have Mormonsim - a God centered religion; on the other hand we have your brand of Christianity, bound to a man-made conception of a God trapped in a Book. At least with Mormonism God shows up once in a while. When was the last time a Christian saw God - hmmmmm?

[_just me]

At least with Mormonism God shows up once in a while.

What a truly sad commentary. I assume this refers to the vision (not visitation!) that Joseph Smith had.

That was mighty kind of God to show up once in a dream.

[_Themis]

Tobin,

Here is a site to help you understand the issue a little better

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

[_Tobin]

Tobin,

Here is a site to help you understand the issue a little better

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

You need to work on reading and comprehension Themis. All you've done is further support my statements.

1) I was already aware of the FAIR information since I have commented in another thread about it and links to MormonThink regarding the CH and the fact Joseph Smith claimed to have received the U&T back after losing the 116 pages.
2) The U&T ARE seer stones (something I've already pointed out to you).
3) Joseph Smith used the U&T in the translation of the Book of Mormon (something I've already pointed out to you).
4) God gave the U&T to Joseph Smith (something I've already pointed out to you).
5) Joseph Smith would take the U&T seer stones out of there bows to use them - presumably the stone in the hat as exactly we were discussing (something I've already pointed out to you).

---> Oh, and the grand finale, I simply pointed out that the U&T SEER STONES are devices and the U&T SEER STONES in ancient times were meant to be used covered with a veil, so it is unremarkable to find Joseph Smith using them in such a manner by covering his face with his hat while viewing the SEER STONES.

So, it would seem you are the one that is not familiar with the material at all. I really think you should try not only to read the material, but put some cognitive effort into actually understanding what is written as well.

[_Themis]

Tobin,

Here is a site to help you understand the issue a little better

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

You need to work on reading and comprehension Themis. All you've done is further support my statements.

1) I was already aware of the FAIR information since I have commented in another thread about it and links to MormonThink regarding the CH and the fact Joseph Smith claimed to have received the U&T back after losing the 116 pages.
2) The U&T ARE seer stones (something I've already pointed out to you).
3) Joseph Smith used the U&T in the translation of the Book of Mormon (something I've already pointed out to you).
4) God gave the U&T to Joseph Smith (something I've already pointed out to you).
5) Joseph Smith would take the U&T seer stones out of there bows to use them - presumably the stone in the hat as exactly we were discussing (something I've already pointed out to you).

---> Oh, and the grand finale, I simply pointed out that the U&T SEER STONES are devices and the U&T SEER STONES in ancient times were meant to be used covered with a veil, so it is unremarkable to find Joseph Smith using them in such a manner by covering his face with his hat while viewing the SEER STONES.

So, it would seem you are the one that is not familiar with the material at all. I really think you should try not only to read the material, but put some cognitive effort into actually understanding what is written as well.

Wonder why fair doesn't agree with you. Maybe you could back it up.

[_Tobin]

Wonder why fair doesn't agree with you. Maybe you could back it up.

Again, your reading and comprehension problem is obvious. Point out where it disagrees with me in any way.

[_Themis]

Wonder why fair doesn't agree with you. Maybe you could back it up.

Again, your reading and comprehension problem is obvious. Point out where it disagrees with me in any way.

Both sites do not agree with you that the Nephite interpreters were returned. They also agree that the seer stones (not to be confused with the interpreters) were used in the Book of Mormon we have today.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones
http://www.mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm#whatexactlyis

[_Tobin]

Wonder why fair doesn't agree with you. Maybe you could back it up.

Again, your reading and comprehension problem is obvious. Point out where it disagrees with me in any way.

Both sites do not agree with you that the Nephite interpreters were returned. They also agree that the seer stones (not to be confused with the interpreters) were used in the Book of Mormon we have today.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones
http://www.mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm#whatexactlyis

Apparently you haven't been keeping up with the forums. We just discussed this problem and I pointed it out that Mormon Think has also ignored the HC. One of the editors to Mormonthink ACKNOWLEDGED this as well.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26020

p.21
In the meantime, while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father's family at Manchester. I continued there for a short season, and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home, I was walking out a little distance, when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again--for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings, which he lost by transgression--and I inquired of the Lord through it, and obtained the following:

http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c3history.html

Apparently, Joseph Smith states something different than what you are saying Themis. Again, - your biggest problem is you do not read the material, understand it, and often misrepesent things. You can not be trusted to state things honestly at all and that is why I dislike discussing things with you.