Tobin wrote: Apparently you haven't been keeping up with the forums. We just discussed this problem and I pointed it out that Mormon Think has ignored the HC. One of the editors to Mormonthink ACKNOWLEDGED this as well.
Out of the two sites I mentioned, Mormonthink was the one to mention the HC.
Apparently, Joseph Smith states something different than what you are saying Themis. Again, - your biggest problem is you do not read the material, understand it, and often misrepesent things. You can not be trusted to state things honestly at all and that is why I dislike discussing things with you.
I have been honest the whole time. If Joseph actually said these words, why is it the very people who would have the most reason to accept the HC account do not agree with you?
Tobin wrote: Apparently you haven't been keeping up with the forums. We just discussed this problem and I pointed it out that Mormon Think has ignored the HC. One of the editors to Mormonthink ACKNOWLEDGED this as well.
Out of the two sites I mentioned, Mormonthink was the one to mention the HC.
Apparently, Joseph Smith states something different than what you are saying Themis. Again, - your biggest problem is you do not read the material, understand it, and often misrepesent things. You can not be trusted to state things honestly at all and that is why I dislike discussing things with you.
I have been honest the whole time. If Joseph actually said these words, why is it the very people who would have the most reason to accept the HC account do not agree with you?
1) There is no evidence that Joseph Smith didn't state what I just cited. If you have any, please produce it. 2) Not all material on FAIR is up-to-date or written by authors that are aware of all the relevant material. I'm sure they would acknowledge the problem, just as MormonThink did in that discussion thread. I have sent FAIR an e-mail about it, but have not received any response yet.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: 1) There is no evidence that Joseph Smith didn't state what I just cited. If you have any, please produce it.
How these things work is you providing evidence he did say them. What is the source of the entry in the CH. CH unfortunately is not always accurate.
Here is a quote from the fAIR article
Thus, "it" (Joseph's gift) was restored to him, but there is no indication that the Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were also returned, Joseph having also lost "them." That is, after repenting, Joseph would recover his seer stones, but apparently not the Urim and Thummim. Some Church sources have seen this as the point at which Joseph received the seer stone for the first time, but this is likely incorrect:
As a chastisement for this carelessness [loss of the 116 pages], the Urim and Thummim was taken from Smith. But by humbling himself, he again found favor with the Lord and was presented a strange oval-shaped, chocolate colored stone, about the size of an egg, but more flat which it was promised should answer the same purpose. With this stone all the present book was translated.
One of the problems here is that the term U & T did not appear until I think about 1833, and was used to refer to the Nephite interpreters and seers stones.
Tobin wrote: 1) There is no evidence that Joseph Smith didn't state what I just cited. If you have any, please produce it.
How these things work is you providing evidence he did say them. What is the source of the entry in the CH. CH unfortunately is not always accurate.
Here is a quote from the fAIR article
Thus, "it" (Joseph's gift) was restored to him, but there is no indication that the Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were also returned, Joseph having also lost "them." That is, after repenting, Joseph would recover his seer stones, but apparently not the Urim and Thummim. Some Church sources have seen this as the point at which Joseph received the seer stone for the first time, but this is likely incorrect:
As a chastisement for this carelessness [loss of the 116 pages], the Urim and Thummim was taken from Smith. But by humbling himself, he again found favor with the Lord and was presented a strange oval-shaped, chocolate colored stone, about the size of an egg, but more flat which it was promised should answer the same purpose. With this stone all the present book was translated.
One of the problems here is that the term U & T did not appear until I think about 1833, and was used to refer to the Nephite interpreters and seers stones.
Again, you have yet to provide any evidence to discredit or show that Joseph Smith did not make the statement I cited from the CH. The statements at FAIR are frankly inaccurate given the citation I made to the CH (especially since the authors at FAIR completely fail to cite the CH or explain why the quote is invalid). The citation I provided is directly attributable to Joseph Smith, in the early part of the CH and would have been reviewed and edited by Joseph Smith, and D&C 3 follows that quote. Themis, unless and until you can provide any evidence to the contrary that the CH is wrong (or Joseph Smith did not make this claim), I will attribute all your comments as merely a misrepresentation by you. Your view of FAIR trumping the CH and statements attributable to Joseph Smith is simply more of the same deceit you always engage in and demonstrates you have no desire for an honest discussion of the facts.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: Again, you have yet to provide any evidence to discredit or show that Joseph Smith did not make the statement I cited from the CH. The statements at FAIR are frankly inaccurate given the citation I made to the CH. The citation I provided is directly attributable to Joseph Smith, in the early part of the CH and would have been reviewed and edited by Joseph Smith, and D&C 3 follows that quote. Themis, unless and until you can provide any evidence to the contrary that the CH is wrong (or Joseph Smith did not make this claim), I will attribute all your comments as merely a misrepresentation by you. Your view of FAIR trumping the CH and statements attributable to Joseph Smith is simply more of the same deceit you always engage in and demonstrates you have no desire for an honest discussion of the facts.
I suppose falsely asserting that I have misrepresented is all you have. I take it you cannot show what the original source of the CH text you quoted. Who wrote it and when. I suppose you think we should take one piece if evidence and ignore all the others.
Another quote from fair
We see here the tendency to use the term "Urim and Thummim" to refer to Joseph's seer stone (or to the Nephite interpreters, which would have been too large for Joseph to carry on his person undetected). This lack of precision in terminology has, on occasion, confused some members who have not understood that either or both may be referred to by early LDS authors as "Urim and Thummim." To Joseph and his contemporaries, they were all the same type of thing, and merely differed in the strength of their power and ability. Clearly, devices from the Lord when directed by an angelic messenger (such as the Nephite interpreters) would outrank a seer stone found on one's own.
Which U & T are we talking about?
The statements at FAIR are frankly inaccurate given the citation I made to the CH.
Tobin wrote: Again, you have yet to provide any evidence to discredit or show that Joseph Smith did not make the statement I cited from the CH. The statements at FAIR are frankly inaccurate given the citation I made to the CH. The citation I provided is directly attributable to Joseph Smith, in the early part of the CH and would have been reviewed and edited by Joseph Smith, and D&C 3 follows that quote. Themis, unless and until you can provide any evidence to the contrary that the CH is wrong (or Joseph Smith did not make this claim), I will attribute all your comments as merely a misrepresentation by you. Your view of FAIR trumping the CH and statements attributable to Joseph Smith is simply more of the same deceit you always engage in and demonstrates you have no desire for an honest discussion of the facts.
I suppose falsely asserting that I have misrepresented is all you have. I take it you cannot show what the original source of the CH text you quoted. Who wrote it and when. I suppose you think we should take one piece if evidence and ignore all the others.
Another quote from fair
We see here the tendency to use the term "Urim and Thummim" to refer to Joseph's seer stone (or to the Nephite interpreters, which would have been too large for Joseph to carry on his person undetected). This lack of precision in terminology has, on occasion, confused some members who have not understood that either or both may be referred to by early LDS authors as "Urim and Thummim." To Joseph and his contemporaries, they were all the same type of thing, and merely differed in the strength of their power and ability. Clearly, devices from the Lord when directed by an angelic messenger (such as the Nephite interpreters) would outrank a seer stone found on one's own.
Which U & T are we talking about?
The statements at FAIR are frankly inaccurate given the citation I made to the CH.
You should back this up as well.
First of all, THIS IS WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID:
Again, you have yet to provide any evidence to discredit or show that Joseph Smith did not make the statement I cited from the CH. The statements at FAIR are frankly inaccurate given the citation I made to the CH (especially since the authors at FAIR completely fail to cite the CH or explain why the quote is invalid). The citation I provided is directly attributable to Joseph Smith, in the early part of the CH and would have been reviewed and edited by Joseph Smith, and D&C 3 follows that quote. Themis, unless and until you can provide any evidence to the contrary that the CH is wrong (or Joseph Smith did not make this claim), I will attribute all your comments as merely a misrepresentation by you. Your view of FAIR trumping the CH and statements attributable to Joseph Smith is simply more of the same deceit you always engage in and demonstrates you have no desire for an honest discussion of the facts.
1) You'll note the authors of FAIR fail to cite or address the quotation from the CH, so that is why their statement are obviously innaccurate. 2) Unless and until you can prove it, your assertion that someone came along later and simply made up the early part of the CH and made up the statements attibutable to Joseph Smith here - is simply preposterous. It is also a deceitful and dishonest view of documents (especially when you have zero evidence to back up your assertions) and such a ridiculous assertion (and attack) can be made on virtually ALL historical accounts. The reason I consider you wholly dishonest is because you put forward such an assertion without a shred of evidence to back it up and it reflects poorly on you because it means you have no intellectual honesty what-so-ever. 3) In the CH, Joseph Smith clearly states it was the Urim and Thummim. It can't be any less ambiguous.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: 1) You'll note the authors of FAIR fail to cite or address the quotation from the CH, so that is why their statement are obviously innaccurate.
It doesn't show them inaccurate at all. You just don't want to look at the whole issue.
2) Unless and until you can prove it, your assertion that someone came along later and simply made up the early part of the CH and made up the statements attibutable to Joseph Smith here - is simply preposterous. It is also a deceitful and dishonest view of documents (especially when you have zero evidence to back up your assertions) and such a ridiculous assertion (and attack) can be made on virtually ALL historical accounts. The reason I consider you wholly dishonest is because you put forward such an assertion without a shred of evidence to back it up and it reflects poorly on you because it means you have no intellectual honesty what-so-ever.
I have already shown enough to show it is not as cut and dry and you want it to be. You don't give any details of who wrote the text or when. There is a lot you just don't want to deal with so you can just believe what you want here, and you then just want to falsely accuse others of deceit and dishonesty.
3) In the CH, Joseph Smith clearly states it was the Urim and Thummim. It can't be any less ambiguous.
Yet the term U & T is a term that was not used when the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated, and it is also a term used to refer to more then just the nephite interpreters. Maybe Fair and Farms know something you don't.
LittleNipper wrote:[I've yet to hear any Biblical understanding from you that is remotely enligthening. On the one hand, we have Mormonsim - a God centered religion; on the other hand we have your brand of Christianity, bound to a man-made conception of a God trapped in a Book. At least with Mormonism God shows up once in a while. When was the last time a Christian saw God - hmmmmm?
God wrote the Bible, designing it to suit HIS purpose. GOD is not trapped by a religion made by man for man. And God never revealed HIMSELF to Joseph Smith apart from what Joseph Smith said concerning such an event. That angel of light on the pinnacle is not Christ.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tobin wrote: 1) You'll note the authors of FAIR fail to cite or address the quotation from the CH, so that is why their statement are obviously innaccurate.
It doesn't show them inaccurate at all. You just don't want to look at the whole issue.
2) Unless and until you can prove it, your assertion that someone came along later and simply made up the early part of the CH and made up the statements attibutable to Joseph Smith here - is simply preposterous. It is also a deceitful and dishonest view of documents (especially when you have zero evidence to back up your assertions) and such a ridiculous assertion (and attack) can be made on virtually ALL historical accounts. The reason I consider you wholly dishonest is because you put forward such an assertion without a shred of evidence to back it up and it reflects poorly on you because it means you have no intellectual honesty what-so-ever.
I have already shown enough to show it is not as cut and dry and you want it to be. You don't give any details of who wrote the text or when. There is a lot you just don't want to deal with so you can just believe what you want here, and you then just want to falsely accuse others of deceit and dishonesty.
3) In the CH, Joseph Smith clearly states it was the Urim and Thummim. It can't be any less ambiguous.
Yet the term U & T is a term that was not used when the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated, and it is also a term used to refer to more then just the Nephite interpreters. Maybe Fair and Farms know something you don't.
Themis,
When you want to state something meaningful, please do so. I'm tired of your baseless assertions. That seems to be all you do. And I have yet to see you explain the lack of citation by FAIR. All you state is your assertion that FAIR knows something the rest of us do not. Well, if they do, they certainly haven't stated it anywhere nor have they explained why they missed the quote from Joseph Smith in the CH (the reason seems obvious - they are unaware of it is why). As far as your baseless assertion that the early CH was made up by someone else and all the other fiction you make up, unless and until you can prove any of it - I'll choose to believe the representations made by the documents and not your bizarre conspiracy theories.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
When you want to state something meaningful, please do so. I'm tired of your baseless assertions. That seems to be all you do. And I have yet to see you explain the lack of citation by FAIR. All you state is your assertion that FAIR knows something the rest of us do not. Well, if they do, they certainly haven't stated it anywhere nor have they explained why they missed the quote from Joseph Smith in the CH (the reason seems obvious - they are unaware of it is why). As far as your baseless assertion that the early CH was made up by someone else and all the other fiction you make up, unless and until you can prove any of it - I'll choose to believe the representations made by the documents and not your bizarre conspiracy theories.
You are still avoiding questions about the CH quote, and the two sites I linked deal with the issue. They provide quotes from church history about it. You can see quotes that say Joseph never got the interpreters back as well. Also many sources tell us he used the seer stones to translate the Book of Mormon. You only want to accept one source you cannot back up, and then interpret it the way you want. It might be a better to be more open minded about the subject, and try to look at all the evidence together. You can of course believe what ever you want.
by the way are you aware that the seer stones and Nephite interpreters were referred to as the U & T as well as interpreters?