How the Great Flood many have happened?

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_bcuzbcuz
_Emeritus
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:14 pm

Re: How the Great Flood many have happened?

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

LittleNipper wrote: It must be understood that "Palestine" was nearly a waste land with few people even living there until Jews began to filter back to the area. And unfortunately, Muslims are known to load themselves and their children up with explosives and murder randomly. The Jews didn't even do that to the Nazis, it is ungodly. I'm sure Jews and Arabs can work together in peace and as friends, but the Arabs must accept Israel as the historic national home of the Hebrews and not cause harm. My parents and some friends have been to Israel. They found it to be a wonderful place, full of Bible history.


Just where do you come up with this stuff?

The population of Ottoman controlled Palestine in 1880 was about 400,000, about 24,000 considered themselves Jews. By the beginning of WW I the population was 700,000. When the state of Israel was formed there were about 1,200,000 Arabs and about 600,000 Jews who subsequently pushed all the non-Jews out of "their" territories.

Your "wasteland" concept and nobody living there is pure fiction.

Study a little history. Pick your own sources. But you may want to start with Ben-Gurion's or Sharon's own writing's about the terrorism they performed against the British and the Arab population.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
_LittleNipper
_Emeritus
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: How the Great Flood many have happened?

Post by _LittleNipper »

bcuzbcuz wrote:
LittleNipper wrote: It must be understood that "Palestine" was nearly a waste land with few people even living there until Jews began to filter back to the area. And unfortunately, Muslims are known to load themselves and their children up with explosives and murder randomly. The Jews didn't even do that to the Nazis, it is ungodly. I'm sure Jews and Arabs can work together in peace and as friends, but the Arabs must accept Israel as the historic national home of the Hebrews and not cause harm. My parents and some friends have been to Israel. They found it to be a wonderful place, full of Bible history.


Just where do you come up with this stuff?

The population of Ottoman controlled Palestine in 1880 was about 400,000, about 24,000 considered themselves Jews. By the beginning of WW I the population was 700,000. When the state of Israel was formed there were about 1,200,000 Arabs and about 600,000 Jews who subsequently pushed all the non-Jews out of "their" territories.

Your "wasteland" concept and nobody living there is pure fiction.

Study a little history. Pick your own sources. But you may want to start with Ben-Gurion's or Sharon's own writing's about the terrorism they performed against the British and the Arab population.

Let's study a little US History. New Jersey is about the same size as Israel. Let's look at the history of their population. Please see the list below. Note: that New Jersey in 1960, was still very much considered the GARDEN STATE and yet it already had a population of over 6 MILLION. In 1948 you are saying Israel had a population of 2 MILLION, but in fact it had only had a population of barely 700,00 in 1914, while by 1910 New Jersey boasted a population of over 2 and a half million. So it does seem rather odd to me that Arabs flooded the location of Israel seemingly AFTER the talk of establishing a Jewish Nation commenced. And even with your numbers, It would seem to me that few lived in the land of Israel until about World War II. And a population of 700,000 to 2000,000 jump in about 25 years does seem very ODD to say the least. So, while I appreciate your opinion, you must see that your data actually suppports what I stated. The land was a waste and when there was talk of giving it as a homeland for the Jews, there was an influx of people from outside that local.

Historical populations of New Jersey. Today, New Jersey is the most densely populated State in the Union.
Census Pop. %±
1790 184,139 —
1800 211,149 14.7%
1810 245,562 16.3%
1820 277,575 13.0%
1830 320,823 15.6%
1840 373,306 16.4%
1850 489,555 31.1%
1860 672,035 37.3%
1870 906,096 34.8%
1880 1,131,116 24.8%
1890 1,444,933 27.7%
1900 1,883,669 30.4%
1910 2,537,167 34.7%
1920 3,155,900 24.4%
1930 4,041,334 28.1%
1940 4,160,165 2.9%
1950 4,835,329 16.2%
1960 6,066,782 25.5%
1970 7,168,164 18.2%
1980 7,364,823 2.7%
1990 7,730,188 5.0%
2000 8,414,350 8.9%
2010 8,791,894 4.5%
Est. 2011 8,821,155 [29] 0.3%
_Harold Lee
_Emeritus
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:36 pm

Re: How the Great Flood many have happened?

Post by _Harold Lee »

LittleNipper wrote:The truth in science is only fully proven if one can duplicate an experiment over and over getting the very same results. Values and opinions of what such outcomes might actually mean are still just assumptions unless one can observe the event. No scientist has ever created life from inert substances. Yet, it is widly accepted by a vast majority of scientists that such is indeed a "fact." This is of course not a fact. It has never been observed, and yet without God, what other explanation can there be for them. If Hutton did not believe in a literal 6 day creation, he was not embracing God at all --- any more than satan could give the world to Jesus Christ --- if Jesus would fall down & worship him. The world isn't satan's to give, and a scientist's theories are not fact. There is no safety in numbers. For broad is the way which leads to destruction and many go in there at. Not a comforting thought to someone so devoted to one's own work agreeing with that of everyone else.


That's only partially correct.

Do you mind if I ask what your background is in the subject? Do you do research and experimentation in a related field by profession? Challenging decades of consensus among professionals in a field you don't have background in is a little brash, even if it might seem morally justifiable since it's challenging religious concepts.

Also could you point to any instance where a scientist has called abiogenesis "fact", let alone the sweeping generalization that most or many do ("vast majority")?

We have created organic matter from inorganic, but we should be cautious in asserting the type of logic (or anything related) that says just because it hasn't been done yet therefore it's impossible and God did it. We may be closer than you might think to creating "life". A self-replicating peptide chain with a spark under the right conditions can constitute life, but I don't know of any labs that have attempted to recreate (or how it'd be done) a perfectly sterile environment with intense heat, methane gas, sparks (yes methane is explosive) and vacuous lack of pressure needed to recreate how the earth likely was 3.5 billion years ago. Let alone the non-stop volcanic activity, the fusion of water vapor from helium and hydrogen (helium fused into oxygen), and its condensation taking place and raining over it all. The fact we haven't recreated those conditions you'll have to forgive the poor scientists on it, they are trying their best and working with what they can.

As for not creating any life at all, I don't pretend to know the actual laboratory limitations and how the experiment would need to be set up. What I do know is viruses are considering "living" by some even though they don't breathe, don't have any homeostasis, but do reproduce complicated genetic material. The first life wouldn't need to have self-regulatory abilities, maybe not even a cell or bacteria wall. It wouldn't have to reproduce by binary fission or meiosis, these are rules for today's organisms because they won out millions of times over by becoming increasingly more efficient fighting for limited resources. A self-replicating peptide chain, fueled by a spark is the simplest example, but nature may have surprised us and come up with life even simpler than that at the start. Bacteria multiply rapidly, but the first self-replicating chains may have reproduced much slower (almost unnoticably). DNA is enormously complex and in all living organisms that have survived to today, but the first single-celled organisms did not have them.

Unfortunatley any organic materials (which we have created in laboratories from inorganic materials) are food to bacteria of which there are billions in every room and in the air, so the experiment would need to be perfectly sterile, and may require examinating under powerful microscopes that are also sterile in sterile rooms. This isn't impossible either, but there are probably hundreds of considerations you or I don't understand even if they were identified by those who know what they're talking about.

There's literally hundreds of books that go into further detail than we'd be able to understand on this, but at least trying on one of them might prove helpful. You might find this geniunely fascinating if you haven't begun researching it already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&featu ... FYTc55nGEI

"I prefer a man who can swear a stream as long as my arm but deals justly with his brethren to the long, smooth-faced hypocrite." -Joseph Smith
_ludwigm
_Emeritus
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am

Re: How the Great Flood many have happened?

Post by _ludwigm »

LittleNipper wrote:... without God ...
... satan ...
... scientist's theories are not fact ...
Harold Lee wrote:Do you mind if I ask what your background is in the subject?

The Bible.

Other redundant question?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_PrickKicker
_Emeritus
Posts: 480
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:39 pm

Re: How the Great Flood many have happened?

Post by _PrickKicker »

LittleNipper wrote:The truth in science is only fully proven if one can duplicate an experiment over and over getting the very same results. Values and opinions of what such outcomes might actually mean are still just assumptions unless one can observe the event. No scientist has ever created life from inert substances. Yet, it is widly accepted by a vast majority of scientists that such is indeed a "fact." This is of course not a fact. It has never been observed, and yet without God, what other explanation can there be for them. If Hutton did not believe in a literal 6 day creation, he was not embracing God at all --- any more than satan could give the world to Jesus Christ --- if Jesus would fall down & worship him. The world isn't satan's to give, and a scientist's theories are not fact. There is no safety in numbers. For broad is the way which leads to destruction and many go in there at. Not a comforting thought to someone so devoted to one's own work agreeing with that of everyone else.


Another religious person trying to belittle science and yet also try and use it to support their own claim.

That is why science is based on statistics, the statistics are analysed and the majority is true.

Time to learn about MOSFETs, parameters and error bars, me thinks!

There will always be a variables and complete failures.

That proves that things aren't just black and white, right or wrong... Hence the Adam and Eve parable.

Scientist with intelligence know this... But Religious Zombies who turn their backs on intelligence, can't comprehend it.

Same reason the Mormon church doesn't like truth or history or science, because they are all "Not always helpful. and hinder the Profits!"
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
_bcuzbcuz
_Emeritus
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:14 pm

Re: How the Great Flood many have happened?

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

LittleNipper wrote:Let's study a little US History. New Jersey is about the same size as Israel. Let's look at the history of their population. Please see the list below. Note: that New Jersey in 1960, was still very much considered the GARDEN STATE and yet it already had a population of over 6 MILLION. In 1948 you are saying Israel had a population of 2 MILLION, but in fact it had only had a population of barely 700,00 in 1914, while by 1910 New Jersey boasted a population of over 2 and a half million. So it does seem rather odd to me that Arabs flooded the location of Israel seemingly AFTER the talk of establishing a Jewish Nation commenced. And even with your numbers, It would seem to me that few lived in the land of Israel until about World War II. And a population of 700,000 to 2000,000 jump in about 25 years does seem very ODD to say the least. So, while I appreciate your opinion, you must see that your data actually suppports what I stated. The land was a waste and when there was talk of giving it as a homeland for the Jews, there was an influx of people from outside that local.

Historical populations of New Jersey. Today, New Jersey is the most densely populated State in the Union.

New Jersey...Israel...I don't see the link. Or are you just trying to show what population density really means?

You seem to be confusing the state of Israel, as formed in 1948, from the whole area that was called Palestine prior to that time. You also seem unaware of the terrorism conducted by the secret units of the soon to be created Israel. You also seem unaware of the peoples displaced by the creation of Israel.

I repeat. Pick up any text on the history of the Israeli state. You seriously need to do some reading.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
Post Reply