Emotional Epistemology

[_Themis]

It has been my experience when speaking with TBM's, no matter what evidence is laid out before them, they can always override the evidence because they have an emotional witness of the truth. It does not matter what you provide for them, they have a "higher" knowledge that Trump's any facts you could show them. This "spiritual witness" allows them to entrench into their position and ignore the realities before them. I find this to be very dangerous, when people allow their emotions to override reason we have a problem, this is when we start to get planes flown into buildings.

This is where we have our biggest breakdown when discussing the issues around Mormon history, I see it more pragmatically, they see it emotionally, when I see fraud, they see someone trying to overcome weakness such as Joseph Smith - the list could go on. Essentially the emotional witness gives us an "override" function in our brains allowing us the ability to suspend judgment and defer to an emotion witness as the source of truth.

It isn't an emotional response. It's a very practical response. If Mormonism is true (ie man can speak with God), then God should be able to respond and answer us. The only reason to believe Mormonism is anything but a fraud and a hoax is IF God tells you it is true. It is based on a God really existing and being able to answer us today as he did with Joseph Smith. This is Moroni's promise by the way. One should seek and speak with God and do what God tells you to do.

So then your statement above agrees with Dcharle, since he is talking about members depending on feelings for what they are going to believe is the truth. The problem though is that God does not show up when people ask God about it, but then Moroni's promise does not say that God will show up. In fact it specifically tells you that you will get your answer from the HG. No mention that God needs to show up for this or any other truth you pray about. I think the OP is correct, and it also applies to many or religious groups, and probably many non-religious.

[Guest]

This is my point to the original post, the emotions and feelings you think are from a devin source are more an internal emotional feeling than something external from God. It is not reasonable to think that everyone is going to interpret these feelings in the same way you do, I am confident that God recognizes how inefficient this is in determining truth. Rather we need to use the brain that God has given us to evaluate and determine truth. Emotion and feeling are just to subjective.

[_Tobin]

This is my point to the original post, the emotions and feelings you think are from a devin source are more an internal emotional feeling than something external from God. It is not reasonable to think that everyone is going to interpret these feelings in the same way you do. Rather we need to use the brain that God has given us to evaluate and determine truth. Emotion and feeling are just to subjective.

You assume that God is simply an artifact of our brain or emotions. I contend this is not the case. It is up to the reader to decide. But if you believe the scriptures are true and that God is real, then it would seem rational and reasonable to pursue this to its logical conclusion which is to really see, speak with, and experience God. Outside of that, I would agree people are deluding themselves.

And I draw a very large distinction between Mormons that have seen and spoken with God and those that have not. Those that know there is a God and have truly seen and heard him are entirely different than Mormons that simply wish Mormonism to be true. I'm sure your argument that this is all an emotional response might be persuasive to those Mormons that merely believe. However, it is not compelling for those of us that know better.

[_Themis]

You assume that God is simply an artifact of our brain or emotions. I contend this is not the case. It is up to the reader to decide. But if you believe the scriptures are true and that God is real, then it would seem rational and reasonable to pursue this to its logical conclusion which is to really see, speak with, and experience God. Outside of that, I would agree people are deluding themselves.

Moroni's promise does not lead to this conclusion since it says the HG will reveal the truth. It doesn't say anything about God needing to show up.

[_Tobin]

You assume that God is simply an artifact of our brain or emotions. I contend this is not the case. It is up to the reader to decide. But if you believe the scriptures are true and that God is real, then it would seem rational and reasonable to pursue this to its logical conclusion which is to really see, speak with, and experience God. Outside of that, I would agree people are deluding themselves.

Moroni's promise does not lead to this conclusion since it says the HG will reveal the truth. It doesn't say anything about God needing to show up.

Themis, you seem to see a distinction between the HG and God for some reason. It is through the HG that God is revealed to us. The HG is part of the Godhead and synonymous with God. Your attempts at drawing a distinction is unwelcome and uninformed.

[Guest]

...

[_Themis]

Themis, you seem to see a distinction between the HG and God for some reason. It is through the HG that God is revealed to us. The HG is part of the Godhead and synonymous with God. Your attempts at drawing a distinction is unwelcome and uninformed.

I am sure for you any idea you don't agree with is unwelcome, but I see no problem correcting you on this. There certainly is a distinction for Mormons between the HG and God, and no one is in Mormonism thinks that the HG is would not be present if God were to show up.

really see, speak with, and experience God

I could certainly see someone saying experiencing God being equated with feeling the HG or spirit, but I am not sure how seeing and speaking to God can be seen any other way then actually having God show up. This is something everyone knows you like to preach, but the church and even Joseph never really made this a condition, and Moroni's promise only brings up the HG, and nothing about revealing God the person.

[_Tobin]

I could certainly see someone saying experiencing God being equated with feeling the HG or spirit, but I am not sure how seeing and speaking to God can be seen any other way then actually having God show up. This is something everyone knows you like to preach, but the church and even Joseph never really made this a condition, and Moroni's promise only brings up the HG, and nothing about revealing God the person.

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You seem to have forgotten what Moroni says. First, you aren't asking or addressing the Holy Ghost - you are addressing and asking God. Second, the word the Lord uses is manifest which means 'to display or show by one's appearance'. Who will manifest the truth here? God by the power of the Holy Ghost. Third, how was the truth manifested to Joseph Smith when he asked? God appeared and told Joseph Smith the truth. How did all the prophets before Joseph Smith learn the truth? God appeared and told them the truth. How are all those who truly know the Lord converted to him? The Lord appears and tells them the truth as he has done with me. I know there is a God and you can not ever prevail against me nor anyone else that has a personal witness of God. We are simply beyond you and know the truth.

It would seem Themis that you have the scriptures, but you can not read nor understand them. They are plain to those of us that have not turned our back on God though.

[_Themis]

You seem to have forgotten what Moroni says. First, you aren't asking or addressing the Holy Ghost - you are addressing and asking God.

So.

Second, the word the Lord uses is manifest which means 'to display or show by one's appearance'. Who will manifest the truth here? God by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Incorrect. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manifest

It says he will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, not that he will manifest himself to you. Big difference. How will he he manifest the truth. Through the HG. This has been taught by Joseph on down this way. Think of the D&C 9.

I know there is a God and you can not ever prevail against me nor anyone else that has a personal witness of God. We are simply beyond you and know the truth.

The same can be said for those who have had Xenu appear. The only thing we have to be careful of is getting people together who think God has shown up. We will have to call the police to break up the fight.

[_Tobin]

Second, the word the Lord uses is manifest which means 'to display or show by one's appearance'. Who will manifest the truth here? God by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Incorrect. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manifest

Again, you have the same problem here as you usually do of simply making baseless assertions. You just make these assertions and don't follow up with any explanation. For example,

Manifest is defined as follows:

1.Display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=manifest&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=iCh2UKfZJuLQ2AWmhYCoBw&ved=0CB8QkQ4&biw=1753&bih=917

Even the definitions at dictionary.reference.com don't dispute this. You seem to imply that someone can 'manifest' or demonstrate the truth without appearing or doing so themselves and is contrary the definitions present. Synonyms for manifest are show, demonstrate and so on. It seems that you don't have a good grasp on the language and so you resort to one word false assetions counter to what is actually stated like your use of 'incorrect' with NO basis for doing so what-so-ever.

Given that, your next assertion is patently absurd ->

It says he will manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, not that he will manifest himself to you. Big difference. How will he he manifest the truth. Through the HG. This has been taught by Joseph on down this way. Think of the D&C 9.

Also, your position is actually counter the first vision and what happened to Joseph Smith. This is the example of God manifesting the truth. In fact, we don't get far into the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and so on and what happens? God shows up and manifests the truth to Adam and Eve or Lehi and so on. Again, as I've pointed out repeatedly Themis, you simply don't have a good grasp on the scriptures and do not believe them.