Emotional Epistemology

[_Themis]

Again, you have the same problem here as you usually do of simply making baseless assertions. You just make these assertions and don't follow up with any explanation.

Sorry, but I have explained very clearly what it actually says which is manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, and my definition is still correct that is does not have to involve the appearance of anyone. Just because some have have seen God does not make it a condition or requirement to know the truth of the Book of Mormon or any many other truths according to Joseph and LDS doctrine. You just don't like the fact that it doesn't agree with what you want to preach, but then so what. Many LDS doctrines conflict with what you want to believe and you are happy with that.

[_Tobin]

Again, you have the same problem here as you usually do of simply making baseless assertions. You just make these assertions and don't follow up with any explanation.

Sorry, but I have explained very clearly what it actually says which is manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon, and my definition is still correct that is does not have to involve the appearance of anyone. Just because some have have seen God does not make it a condition or requirement to know the truth of the Book of Mormon or any many other truths according to Joseph and LDS doctrine. You just don't like the fact that it doesn't agree with what you want to preach, but then so what. Many LDS doctrines conflict with what you want to believe and you are happy with that.

And as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, that you and those like you that have not sought the Lord, seen, spoken with, and experienced him have no basis in the gospel and knoweldge of the truth. The reason you are no longer a Mormon Themis is not because you "found" reasons to disbelieve, but because you failed to find reasons to believe. Just because you were one time a Mormon does not mean that you understand Mormonism or were on the right path at all. As I've often stated, being born into Mormonism or simply allowing yourself to be baptized and going to Church regularly does not mean very much at all if you are not dedicated to seeking to speak with and see the Lord and know the truth for yourself.

[_Themis]

And as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, that you and those like you that have not sought the Lord, seen, spoken with, and experienced him have no basis in the gospel and knoweldge of the truth.

And many have called you on this BS. You say you didn't anyways. I have sought for many years God, and tried to follow him. I know that as do others, and recognize you need to believe this in order to justify why no one else sees God.

The reason you are no longer a Mormon Themis is not because you "found" reasons to disbelieve, but because you failed to find reasons to believe.

I had many reasons to believe, but found evidence(reasons) both spiritual and physical that showed Joseph made it up.

Just because you were one time a Mormon does not mean that you understand Mormonism or were on the right path at all.

I know myself better then you ever will, and you don't know what others of us have actually done. It is just an excuse.

As I've often stated, being born into Mormonism or simply allowing yourself to be baptized and going to Church regularly does not mean very much at all if you are not dedicated to seeking to speak with and see the Lord and know the truth for yourself.

We know you have often stated this BS. We just know ourselves a lot better then you.

You seem to be ignoring the fact I have shown Moroni's promise does not say God will manifest himself, but that he will manifest the truth by the HG. I also gave you D&C 9 which also shows God appearing is not supposed to be necessary in order to learn truth or revelation. This should be evident to one who knows anything about Joseph Smith and his claims.

[_Tobin]

And as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, that you and those like you that have not sought the Lord, seen, spoken with, and experienced him have no basis in the gospel and knoweldge of the truth.

And many have called you on this BS. You say you didn't anyways. I have sought for many years God, and tried to follow him. I know that as do others, and recognize you need to believe this in order to justify why no one else sees God.

Actually, all you've done is just make that claim. It is counter the scriptures and the prophets and all of those of us that have a witness of God. You claim it is simply BS, but you also claim that Joseph Smith seeing God is BS and all the prophets seeing and speaking with God is BS. You would disregard Paul for seeing God and speaking with him as well. Your position is frankly absurd and does not reflect the scriptures or gospel.

The reason you are no longer a Mormon Themis is not because you "found" reasons to disbelieve, but because you failed to find reasons to believe.

I had many reasons to believe, but found evidence(reasons) both spiritual and physical that showed Joseph made it up.

And the reason you believe this non-sense is because you have never bothered to follow his example and speak with God yourself.

Just because you were one time a Mormon does not mean that you understand Mormonism or were on the right path at all.

I know myself better then you ever will, and you don't know what others of us have actually done. It is just an excuse.

Actually, I do know what you have not done. Your actions and statements here demonstrate you do not know God and do not follow him.

As I've often stated, being born into Mormonism or simply allowing yourself to be baptized and going to Church regularly does not mean very much at all if you are not dedicated to seeking to speak with and see the Lord and know the truth for yourself.

We know you have often stated this BS. We just know ourselves a lot better then you.

Hardly. You have failed to follow God and you call it BS when people tell you these things are true and they have experienced it themselves. You are welcome to believe whatever non-sense you wish, it does not mean it reflects reality however.

You seem to be ignoring the fact I have shown Moroni's promise does not say God will manifest himself, but that he will manifest the truth by the HG. I also gave you D&C 9 which also shows God appearing is not supposed to be necessary in order to learn truth or revelation. This should be evident to one who knows anything about Joseph Smith and his claims.

I have provided ample examples that the choice of the word 'manifest' clearly states that God will demonstrate the truth himself. You have yet to answer who other than God will demonstrate the truth (other than your false belief that the HG is somehow separate from God)?!? You have yet to answer how examples such as Joseph Smith or the other prophets seeing and hearing the truth does not clearly show this is the way the Lord 'manifests' the truth. Your response is that you simply do not believe in such things and have not experienced these things so it must be somehow different for you. The only difference between you and Joseph Smith and myself is your dedication. You are not dedicated to the Lord and the truth and so the Lord does not 'manifest' it to you. The Lord knows you Themis. You can not fool him and pretend to be obedient to God when in your heart you have no intention of doing so.

[_Themis]

And many have called you on this BS. You say you didn't anyways. I have sought for many years God, and tried to follow him. I know that as do others, and recognize you need to believe this in order to justify why no one else sees God.

Actually, all you've done is just make that claim. It is counter the scriptures and the prophets and all of those of us that have a witness of God. You claim it is simply BS, but you also claim that Joseph Smith seeing God is BS and all the prophets seeing and speaking with God is BS. You would disregard Paul for seeing God and speaking with him as well. Your position is frankly absurd and does not reflect the scriptures or gospel.

You demonstrate a common mistake people do here by judging one on their current beliefs and not what they say their former beliefs were.

And the reason you believe this non-sense is because you have never bothered to follow his example and speak with God yourself.

I have followed His(Joseph) example. Just because God doesn't exists or is not interested in showing up is not my fault. You claim he showed up unsought.

Actually, I do know what you have not done. Your actions and statements here demonstrate you do not know God and do not follow him.

Again judging by current beliefs and not former beliefs.

Hardly. You have failed to follow God and you call it BS when people tell you these things are true and they have experienced it themselves. You are welcome to believe whatever non-sense you wish, it does not mean it reflects reality however.

These people cannot even agree on what God is or wants. I believe you think you have seen God, but see no reason to believe you actually have anymore then others who would disagree with you about it.

I have provided ample examples that the choice of the word 'manifest' clearly states that God will demonstrate the truth himself.

You haven't provided anything that that says God will provide the truth himself. IN fact it says someone else entirely.

You have yet to answer who other than God will demonstrate the truth (other than your false belief that the HG is somehow separate from God)

Seriously. This is one of the more ludicrous statements I have read.Joseph taught the HG was a separate personage, and Moroni's promise clearly says it will be the HG who manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon. "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost"

The church has been more then clear about this as well. No one here that is a believer will agree with your take on it.

You have yet to answer how examples such as Joseph Smith or the other prophets seeing and hearing the truth does not clearly show this is the way the Lord 'manifests' the truth.

Try reading the scriptures. I gave you D&C 9. You can also look up what Joseph and others have taught about it. This really is one of the silliest beliefs I have not seen from anyone else here.

?!? Your response is that you simply do not believe in such things and have not experienced these things so it must be somehow different for you. The only difference between you and Joseph Smith and myself is your dedication.

Again judging by current beliefs and not former ones.

You are not dedicated to the Lord and the truth and so the Lord does not 'manifest' it to you. The Lord knows you Themis. You can not fool him and pretend to be obedient to God when in your heart you have no intention of doing so.

Again judging by current beliefs and not former, but then you think God shows up for some people who are not obedient. It's just your usual excuse for why others didn't have what they thought was God showing up, which is almost every member of the church, and the few who do usually have 'problems'. One of your main problems is judging people you don't know, when they know themselves and what they have done and what their intentions were. You won't gain any credibility with these kind of tactics.

[_Tobin]

...

Mostly just more of your non-sense as usual and I have no interest in your baseless assertions. However - the following made me laugh:

You have yet to answer who other than God will demonstrate the truth (other than your false belief that the HG is somehow separate from God)

Seriously. This is one of the more ludicrous statements I have read.Joseph taught the HG was a separate personage, and Moroni's promise clearly says it will be the HG who manifest the truth of the Book of Mormon. "he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost"

Wow. Really just wow. You twist a statement where God states that he (God) will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost into he (the Holy Ghost) will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And you state I'm being ludicrious. I don't think you could have come up with a better example of your broken thinking than that.

[_Themis]

Mostly just more of your non-sense as usual and I have no interest in your baseless assertions.

Just as most here tire of your judging others you don't know, but need to believe certain things about them to justify your religious beliefs.

Wow. Really just wow. You twist a statement where God states that he (God) will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost into he (the Holy Ghost) will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And you state I'm being ludicrious. I don't think you could have come up with a better example of your broken thinking than that.

Yes Moroni's promise says God will manifest the TRUTH of the Book of Mormon to you BY the power of the HG. It doesn't say God will manifest God by the power of the HG. If you had paid attention when you were an active member you would realize this is one of the cornerstones of what Joseph and the LDS church teaches. Everyone understands it does not mean God will show up. Try reading the Book of Mormon and see how they talk about the spirit of God/HG.

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/1994/04/moronis-promise?lang=eng

Interesting that he also brings up D&C 9

[_Gunnar]

I nominate Tobin for the title "Champion maker of Baseless Assertions."

I can think of nothing more ludicrous or more arrogant than his claim to know us better than we know ourselves. When and how did he acquire this divine attribute?

[_Drifting]

I nominate Tobin for the title "Champion maker of Baseless Assertions."

I can think of nothing more ludicrous or more arrogant than his claim to know us better than we know ourselves. When and how did he acquire this divine attribute?

Well, it happened during a period when Tobin was following Satan and doing bad things (he hasn't been explicit what those things were, but they were bad).
Whilst in the act of doing bad things, God showed up out of the blue. Tobin is loathe to describe Him nor how He sounded but he assures us it was God Himself that turned up in person to talk to Tobin whilst he was engaged in doing bad things.

I have asked Tobin on numerous occasions to explain how he knows it was God, but as yet, he has not provided an answer.
I have asked Tobin on numerous occasions to explain why he advocates us to pray to God for an answer when he himself received a visit and answer from God whilst engaged in bad things and not seeking God, but as yet, he has not provided an answer.

[_Tobin]

Mostly just more of your non-sense as usual and I have no interest in your baseless assertions.

Just as most here tire of your judging others you don't know, but need to believe certain things about them to justify your religious beliefs.

Wow. Really just wow. You twist a statement where God states that he (God) will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost into he (the Holy Ghost) will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And you state I'm being ludicrious. I don't think you could have come up with a better example of your broken thinking than that.

Yes Moroni's promise says God will manifest the TRUTH of the Book of Mormon to you BY the power of the HG. It doesn't say God will manifest God by the power of the HG. If you had paid attention when you were an active member you would realize this is one of the cornerstones of what Joseph and the LDS church teaches. Everyone understands it does not mean God will show up. Try reading the Book of Mormon and see how they talk about the spirit of God/HG.

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/1994/04/moronis-promise?lang=eng

Interesting that he also brings up D&C 9

You really seem rather dense here Themis. As I've repeatedly pointed out to you, it isn't the HG manifesting - it is God manifesting the truth to you. To manifest is to demonstrate, show, display, illustrate, prove, to make appear or apparent. So it begs the question - DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH AT ALL?!?

And your ludicrous position that Joseph Smith and all the prophets want us to have feelings when they themselves have God show up and tell them the truth is beyond idiotic. THEY WANT US TO HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCES THAT THEY HAVE HAD SO WE KNOW IT IS TRUE TOO.

You act like you are completely oblivious of the First Vision. What did Joseph Smith do? He asked and was shown the truth by God. What did Lehi do? He asked and was shown the truth by God. What did Nephi do? He asked was shown the truth by God. What have all the prophets and true followers of God have done throughout time? They have asked and been shown the truth by God.

So please stop acting so obtuse and ignorant of Mormon doctrine and the scriptures. These things are clear and have occurred over and over again throughout the scriptures and to all true followers of God. Also, I am through trying to explain this to you. Have a nice life Themis, but unless and until you acknowledge God, speak with him face-to-face and follow him, you will never come to a knowledge of the truth or the gospel or understand God in the slightest.