The horse, domesticated animals and tilling the ground

[_subgenius]

Are you really this ignorant and biased. Mentioning rivers in a text is not evidence for or against. The Lord of the Rings mentions rivers and horses.

speaking of ignorance. The Lord of the Rings is known to be written as and published as fiction....awkward.....so the idea of "evidence" for or against is hardly applicable. Your ego seems to overwhelm common sense and basic reasoning. Your posts seem, at times, to sacrifice any notion of integrity, common sense, or intelligence for the sake of declaring thyself "right"!
As a youth i remember having the same desire, but alas that time has passed.

Now if one gets descriptions of a river that are specific enough and can match them up, then it can be evidence for say the Book of Mormon being historical if you can show Joesph did not really know this area before hand. Otherwise it would have to be evidence for the Book of Mormon being made up just as much as being for the Book of Mormon being historical.

"specific enough" - a favorite term for the goal post mover. my statement is valid, the "specificity" merely speaks to increasing certitude - fundamentally it still serves as evidence for.
Your example here, once again, reveals the mover of the goal post. First it is about evidence for the Book of Mormon being true...but now you would claim that it must also qualify as something that Joseph Smith could have or could not have knowledge of......moving the goal over to Joseph Smith and a notion of motive or intent.

I honestly think you have the desire to be a critic of the church and the Book of Mormon, but your posts merely display a skill set one would associate with a mere protester. Perhaps, if you tried to approach any subject with some humility and understanding that you may not always be "right" those skills would become available to you...i know that is one of the methods that has assisted me, perhaps you could benefit as well...i would also suggest some fundamental studying and life experience...your posts also come across as lacking either.

[_Drifting]

The Lord of the Rings is known to be written as and published as fiction....

You only have the authors word that The Book of Mormon wasn't originally published as fiction...

[_SteelHead]

The Book of Mormon is also largely viewed as a work of fiction.......................... And your point was....?

[_bcuzbcuz]

The Lord of the Rings is known to be written as and published as fiction....

You only have the authors word that The Book of Mormon wasn't originally published as fiction...

Well, actually we have more than that. Joseph Smith sent Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery to Canada to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon and that all profit (not an intentional spelling mistake) would accrue to the Smith family.

"Immediately after publishing the Book of Mormon in 1830, Joseph received a revelation that Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were to go to Toronto, Canada to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. They failed to do so, (partly because the revelation sent them to the wrong town) and upon their return, accused Joseph Smith of falsely prophesying.

"Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copyright, returning without any money. Joseph was at my father's house when they returned. I was there also, and am an eye witness to these facts. Jacob Whitmer and John Whitmer were also present when Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery returned from Canada."

" Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copyright, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking. Joseph did not know how it was, so he enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil." So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copyright was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man."
- David Witmer, AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN Christ, 1887

So why did Joseph Smith try selling the Book of Mormon copyright?

"Joseph Capron wrote that Smith hoped his volume would "relieve the family from all pecuniary embarrassment." There is evidence from Mormon sources to confirm Capron's recollections. Smith himself admitted in his unpublished history that "he sought the plates to obtain riches." Hyrum Smith wrote to his grandfather, Asael, that he believed that service to the Lord would bring the family their long-awaited prosperity. In October 1829, Joseph wrote excitedly to Oliver Cowdery that Josiah Stowell had a chance to obtain five or six hundred dollars and that he was going to buy copies of the Book of Mormon. Lucy Mack Smith said that when it was finally published in March 1830 the family had to sell copies of the book to buy food."

"The economic situation of the Smith families was so desperate at this time that Joseph tried to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page wrote with bitterness years later that the prophet heard he could sell the copyright of any useful book in Canada and that he then received a revelation that "this would be a good opportunity to get a handsome sum." Page explained that once expenses were met the profits were to be "for the exclusive benefit of the Smith family and was to be at the disposal of Joseph." Page indicated that they hoped to get $8,000 for the copyright and that they traveled to Canada covertly to prevent Martin Harris from sharing in the dividend. Smith evidently believed that Harris was well enough off while his own family was destitute. When Page, Cowdery, and Knight arrived at Kingston, Ontario, they found no buyer. Martin Harris apparently learned of what was done, and Joseph guaranteed him in writing that he would share in any profits made from the subsequent sales of the book. In the spring of 1830 Harris walked the streets of Palmyra, trying to sell as many copies of the new scripture as he could. Shortly after Joseph Smith and Jesse Knight saw him in the road with books in his hand, he told them "the books will not sell for nobody wants them."
- Marvin S. Hill, Quest for Refuge, p.20-21 "

Seems Joseph also viewed it as a work of fiction, written for profit.

[Guest]

...

[_Tobin]

Well, actually we have more than that. Joseph Smith sent Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery to Canada to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon and that all profit (not an intentional spelling mistake) would accrue to the Smith family.

"Immediately after publishing the Book of Mormon in 1830, Joseph received a revelation that Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery were to go to Toronto, Canada to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. They failed to do so, (partly because the revelation sent them to the wrong town) and upon their return, accused Joseph Smith of falsely prophesying.

"Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copyright, returning without any money. Joseph was at my father's house when they returned. I was there also, and am an eye witness to these facts. Jacob Whitmer and John Whitmer were also present when Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery returned from Canada."

" Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copyright, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking. Joseph did not know how it was, so he enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil." So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copyright was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man."
- David Witmer, AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN Christ, 1887

So why did Joseph Smith try selling the Book of Mormon copyright?

"Joseph Capron wrote that Smith hoped his volume would "relieve the family from all pecuniary embarrassment." There is evidence from Mormon sources to confirm Capron's recollections. Smith himself admitted in his unpublished history that "he sought the plates to obtain riches." Hyrum Smith wrote to his grandfather, Asael, that he believed that service to the Lord would bring the family their long-awaited prosperity. In October 1829, Joseph wrote excitedly to Oliver Cowdery that Josiah Stowell had a chance to obtain five or six hundred dollars and that he was going to buy copies of the Book of Mormon. Lucy Mack Smith said that when it was finally published in March 1830 the family had to sell copies of the book to buy food."

"The economic situation of the Smith families was so desperate at this time that Joseph tried to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page wrote with bitterness years later that the prophet heard he could sell the copyright of any useful book in Canada and that he then received a revelation that "this would be a good opportunity to get a handsome sum." Page explained that once expenses were met the profits were to be "for the exclusive benefit of the Smith family and was to be at the disposal of Joseph." Page indicated that they hoped to get $8,000 for the copyright and that they traveled to Canada covertly to prevent Martin Harris from sharing in the dividend. Smith evidently believed that Harris was well enough off while his own family was destitute. When Page, Cowdery, and Knight arrived at Kingston, Ontario, they found no buyer. Martin Harris apparently learned of what was done, and Joseph guaranteed him in writing that he would share in any profits made from the subsequent sales of the book. In the spring of 1830 Harris walked the streets of Palmyra, trying to sell as many copies of the new scripture as he could. Shortly after Joseph Smith and Jesse Knight saw him in the road with books in his hand, he told them "the books will not sell for nobody wants them."
- Marvin S. Hill, Quest for Refuge, p.20-21 "

Seems Joseph also viewed it as a work of fiction, written for profit.

The only fiction I see is the post above. What a bunch of baloney.

[_Drifting]

The only fiction I see is the post above. What a bunch of baloney.

What a carefully crafted substantial rebuttal.
(By your standards)

[_Themis]

Are you really this ignorant and biased. Mentioning rivers in a text is not evidence for or against. The Lord of the Rings mentions rivers and horses.

speaking of ignorance. The Lord of the Rings is known to be written as and published as fiction....awkward.....so the idea of "evidence" for or against is hardly applicable.

Well feel free to bring up any text that is claimed to be historical but you believe is fictional. How about the Book of the Law of the Lord. It mentions the Sinai, which we know is an actual place, so by your illogic this must be evidence that the text is true. How about Gold, horses, cattle, etc.

"specific enough" - a favorite term for the goal post mover. my statement is valid, the "specificity" merely speaks to increasing certitude - fundamentally it still serves as evidence for.
Your example here, once again, reveals the mover of the goal post. First it is about evidence for the Book of Mormon being true...but now you would claim that it must also qualify as something that Joseph Smith could have or could not have knowledge of......moving the goal over to Joseph Smith and a notion of motive or intent.

I did suggest you learn what the term means before trying to use it incorrectly as you do, but then I already know you spent much of you time attacking the person instead of dealing with the issues. This is a sign of one who doesn't have any good arguments. Again I said I never stated horses being found would be evidence for the Book of Mormon. You have failed to show this, which is vital to show one has moved goal posts. We both know I haven't. Get back to me if you ever want to discuss this or other issues like a mature adult.

[Guest]

The Lord of the Rings is known to be written as and published as fiction....

You only have the authors word that The Book of Mormon wasn't originally published as fiction...

So?
aside from offering cynicism, little else can be concluded from your comment....
unless...you are trying to offer evidence for something??

[_subgenius]

And then they realized the true profits were in handing the book out for free and asking members for tithing.

i thought you guys insisted it was to pick up chicks....

Yes it all fits together very nicely. It does make one wonder of the state of mind these new converts came from though?

are you not familiar with the 2nd Great Awakening of American History and what the collective psyche of the nation, especially that region, was?
Visions and spiritual experiences would have been quite reasonable.