Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

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_subgenius
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _subgenius »

Brad Hudson wrote:Frankly, this finally proves to me that you just don't know what you are talking about. Do you really think you can just add water to the top of the land and not have it run down into the ocean? Is gravity part of the "junk" you are dispensing with? The way you cover the land is to raise the level of the ocean until it covers up all the land. That means you have to (duh) raise the level of the ocean.

actually, we see water do that quite often on a small scale......and if you recall...the Bible does note that the waters recede again.

Image

see the above for actual science that proves your posts conveying very little knowledge of the subject at hand. Water going "uphill" as it were....so, a proven (and simple enough for you) example that contradicts your very assertion. Not to mention the Jupiter effect...etc....
Point being, your posts, assumptions, and model are primitive and without a basic understanding of actual science. It is as if you think science is a third grade class room and all you have to do is dazzle people with baking soda and vinegar....takes more than a bic lighter to impress this caveman.

Your arrogance is holding you down while actual "modern" science floats farther up and away from you.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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_subgenius
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _subgenius »

SteelHead wrote:You need at a minimum 3 times the current volume of water on the planet to flood the planet to 8km above what we now have. Deal with it.

again your assumptions are invalid.
1. You assume an inaccurate model of the earth's volume
2. You assume a quantity of water being consistent today as with 6,000 or 6,000,000 years ago
3. You assume surface area of land to be consistent with 6,000 or 6,000,000 years ago
4. You assume a concentric water sphere is necessary to flood the planet, when science has proven that water can be non-concentric around the planet.
and finally
you assume that doing some math correctly results in a confirmation of your hypothesis.

your posts (and obligatory formulations) remind me of the following quote, whereas you are running around screaming that N=1:

It's as if someone announced his revolutionary discovery that P=NP implies N=1, and then critics soberly replied that, no, the equation P=NP can also be solved by P=0.
—Scott Aaronson
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_SteelHead
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _SteelHead »

Sub,
1.The Earth's actual volume does not matter for that lower bound.
2. You are the one claiming that it wasn't. Where did the extra water go? You need to show that the Earth's conditions were somehow drastically different 6000 years ago. 6 million years ago is not germane to this argument. You are moving the goalposts.
3. Show that it wasn't. 6 million years ago is not germane to this argument. You are moving the goalposts.
4. Yes water can be non concentric because of tidal bulges and such but the model calculates a valid lower bound despite the non concentricity of water. But if you are going to flood a mountain 8K meters above sea level you have to raise sea level at that local by 8K meters.

It is not my fault that you can not grasp this model..........
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_LittleNipper
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _LittleNipper »

The need for Christians to accept the Flood of Noah's day --- please see : http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=130
_LittleNipper
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _LittleNipper »

Where did the waters come from and where did they go according to the Bible? Please see: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c010.html
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _Res Ipsa »

subgenius wrote:
Brad Hudson wrote:Frankly, this finally proves to me that you just don't know what you are talking about. Do you really think you can just add water to the top of the land and not have it run down into the ocean? Is gravity part of the "junk" you are dispensing with? The way you cover the land is to raise the level of the ocean until it covers up all the land. That means you have to (duh) raise the level of the ocean.

actually, we see water do that quite often on a small scale......and if you recall...the Bible does note that the waters recede again.

Image

see the above for actual science that proves your posts conveying very little knowledge of the subject at hand. Water going "uphill" as it were....so, a proven (and simple enough for you) example that contradicts your very assertion. Not to mention the Jupiter effect...etc....
Point being, your posts, assumptions, and model are primitive and without a basic understanding of actual science. It is as if you think science is a third grade class room and all you have to do is dazzle people with baking soda and vinegar....takes more than a bic lighter to impress this caveman.

Your arrogance is holding you down while actual "modern" science floats farther up and away from you.


:lol: I said the way you cover the land is to change the level of the oceans. That's exactly what tides do -- change the level of the oceans. From low tide to high tide, the sea level rises and the water covers more land. From high to low tide, the sea level falls and the water covers less land. Your example of tides simply confirms the accuracy of what I said.

Of course tides just redistribute the existing water. They don't change the amount available or the average sea level. So, if Noah wants to rely on tides, he faces an immediate problem: tides can't raise the water level everywhere. He also faces a second problem: tides can add tens of meters to a local sea level at best, when he needs to add thousands.

So, tell me again how you are going to cover land with water without raising the level of the oceans. :lol:
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_SteelHead
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _SteelHead »

LittleNipper wrote:Where did the waters come from and where did they go according to the Bible? Please see: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c010.html


The stupid. It burns!!
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _Res Ipsa »

subgenius wrote:
SteelHead wrote:You need at a minimum 3 times the current volume of water on the planet to flood the planet to 8km above what we now have. Deal with it.

again your assumptions are invalid.
1. You assume an inaccurate model of the earth's volume
2. You assume a quantity of water being consistent today as with 6,000 or 6,000,000 years ago
3. You assume surface area of land to be consistent with 6,000 or 6,000,000 years ago
4. You assume a concentric water sphere is necessary to flood the planet, when science has proven that water can be non-concentric around the planet.
and finally
you assume that doing some math correctly results in a confirmation of your hypothesis.

your posts (and obligatory formulations) remind me of the following quote, whereas you are running around screaming that N=1:

It's as if someone announced his revolutionary discovery that P=NP implies N=1, and then critics soberly replied that, no, the equation P=NP can also be solved by P=0.
—Scott Aaronson


Sure we make assumptions. Making assumptions doesn't invalidate a model. The question is, is the assumption reasonable? In determining whether an assumption is reasonable, one of the things we have to look at is how changing the assumption changes the result -- in other words, sensitivity. If the result is very sensitive to the assumption, the assumption needs to be more accurate. If it's not, the assumption can fall within a wide range of values without changing the result.

So, let's look at the assumptions:

1. Volume. You can test the sensitivity of the result to assumptions about volume yourself. All you have to do is use your volume instead of steelhead's. Go ahead. I suspect you won't because you already know the answer and would take away your talking point.

2. Quantity of water. Why is this an unreasonable assumption? What reason do we have to believe there has been any material change in the total volume of water in, on or above the earth in the last 6,000 years. Absent magic, by what process could such a change occur? And, since the topic is the flood recorded in the Bible, 6,000,000 years ago is irrelevant.

3. Land surface area. Ditto.

4. Uneven distribution of water on the surface. This one, I actually agree with. It's not just that the water can be distributed unevenly. We know it is. It is higher than average around toward the equator and lower than average around the poles. And the difference is, in my opinion, potentially material to the calculation. That's why I switched from Everest to Denali, because the change from a stationary earth to a rotating earth appears to relatively increase sea level at Everest and decrease it at Denali.

And, as I demonstrated, taking into account all your objections to the calculation by giving Noah the benefit of the doubt, Noah is thousands of meters short at Denali. And everywhere else North of Salem, Oregon with an elevation of 170 or so meters above sea level.

In the interest of narrowing down the scope of our actual disagreement, is there enough water available on, in and above the surface of the earth to submerge the entire land surface as it exists today in water?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_LittleNipper
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _LittleNipper »

SteelHead wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:Where did the waters come from and where did they go according to the Bible? Please see: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c010.html


The stupid. It burns!!

1 Kings 18:38 >>
New International Version (©1984)
Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the trench!

English Standard Version (©2001)
Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
So a fire from the LORD fell down and consumed the burnt offering, wood, stones, and dirt. The fire even dried up the water that was in the trench.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

American King James Version
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

American Standard Version
Then the fire of Jehovah fell, and consumed the burnt-offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the holocaust, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Darby Bible Translation
And the fire of Jehovah fell, and consumed the burnt-offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

English Revised Version
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Webster's Bible Translation
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt-sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

World English Bible
Then the fire of Yahweh fell, and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Young's Literal Translation
And there falleth a fire of Jehovah, and consumeth the burnt-offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and the water that is in the trench it hath licked up.
_subgenius
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Re: Why I don't believe the story of the Great Flood...

Post by _subgenius »

DrW wrote:To claim that it is bad science to designate anything as impossible is beyond ridiculous.

Please, prove something as impossible (a negative)...scientifically.
(and no, it is not p"proof" to show that the volume of one sphere is smaller than the volume of another sphere)

DrW wrote:There is a reason that the laws of nature are designated as "laws" and not as "guidelines" or "good ideas".

and clearly you are unaware of how "law" is defined scientifically - which is on the test for being a professional scientist.

DrW wrote:The laws of nature render certain events and phenomena impossible. Flooding of the entire Earth with liquid water in the last 10,000 years is one of these events.

which Law?

DrW wrote:In response to your question as to what constitutes a professional scientist, the term would certainly apply to an individual who has demonstrated scientific knowledge and skill by graduating from college in a science major, who has gone on to earn a Ph.D. at a major University, served an apprenticeship as a post doc at MIT, and thereafter been hired by a National Laboratory as a scientist, entrusted with high level DoD and DOE security clearances, and paid to conceptualize and execute technical programs that are of benefit to the US Government and humankind in general. The work of a professional scientist can be evaluated, in part, by the number and quality of peer reviewed publications, patents and books that scientist generates.

:eek: wow...you actually answered....no wonder you do not know how the flood occurred....

DrW wrote:Would care to give us your definition of a professional scientist? (I can hardly wait.)

wait no more

[url]http://news.cnet.com/Many-engineers-lack-a-four-year-degree/2100-1022_3-5312309.html[More than one-fifth of U.S. science and engineering workers do not have a bachelor's degree[/url]
weird because the NSF seems to have peer-reviewed your answer and found it to be inaccurate.
For example they call people scientists who both have and do not have doctorates...and they fail to even use the term "professional scientist"...opting for the more sensible term "scientist"...kinda like calling someone a professional surgeon as opposed to just "surgeon"..
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/us-workforce/
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf11318/
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/nsf11318/ ... =4008&id=2

DrW wrote:More importantly, would you care to provide any evidence that you have the background to understand what is being discussed on this thread?

honestly, just the mere fact that i am able to access the internet and make posts on this thread qualifies me...the concepts are not to difficult even with the many convoluted posts by yourself and others attempting to blur the issue with oranges, concentric spheres, approximations, and what not.
The real challenge is on you, for even i can understand the fundamental flaws in your assertions as they try to "prove the impossible".
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
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