Quasimodo wrote:Organized religion came about much later and had more to do with civil organization and control of society.
moksha wrote:So you think it only started when the shaman realized he could stay fed when tribesmen left a barbecued offering on the altar?
Gunnar wrote:Not at all an unreasonable conjecture! Think about it. Other than the priests or shamans, who else really benefitted from ritual animal sacrifice?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Quasimodo wrote:Organized religion came about much later and had more to do with civil organization and control of society.
moksha wrote:So you think it only started when the shaman realized he could stay fed when tribesmen left a barbecued offering on the altar?
Gunnar wrote:Not at all an unreasonable conjecture! Think about it. Other than the priests or shamans, who else really benefitted from ritual animal sacrifice?
LOL! Of course, you're right about that as well (though I specifically had humans in mind).
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
moksha wrote:Seriously, religious thought seems to be a precursor to civilization.
i think it is valid speculation. Given the social system of human beings and its progress, religion is easily a development away from the more ego-centric atheism that would seem to be necessary for a lone hunter gatherer.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
moksha wrote:Seriously, religious thought seems to be a precursor to civilization.
i think it is valid speculation. Given the social system of human beings and its progress, religion is easily a development away from the more ego-centric atheism that would seem to be necessary for a lone hunter gatherer.
--lone hunter gatherer?
Really?
Think about it.
Hint: Try to think of a primate species, and especially a great ape (hominid) species, that does not organize into social groups (hierarchical troops).
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Quasimodo wrote:Seriously, I would have to separate the words 'religious' and 'spiritual'. I do think that an interest in life after death comes earlier with a more advanced view of the world. Organized religion came about much later and had more to do with civil organization and control of society.
Hello Quasimodo!
Very interesting! I would also separate the words "religious" and "spiritual". I find myself also pondering the rest of the above. Religious institutions do seem to evolve into control of at least their own society, if not an attempt to control all parts of society. It is not God's intent for this to happen. However, man's free will brings him to make choices which may have originally begun with good intentions. Ultimately, man's greed for power and control take over regardless of whether or not original intentions were connected to religious purposes. Godless men will use religion as a means to an end. Likewise, "religious" men will use religion as a means to an end.
Edited to add: Hmmm, when "religious" men use religion as a means to an end, do they actually return to a state of godlessness?
Thank you for the thought exercise.
Blessings,
jo
Last edited by Guest on Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Then, You can quote my comment, with killing the space after [#img] token and the # character in it.
And voila, the pictures can be seen by everybody...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Quasimodo wrote:Seriously, I would have to separate the words 'religious' and 'spiritual'. I do think that an interest in life after death comes earlier with a more advanced view of the world. Organized religion came about much later and had more to do with civil organization and control of society.
Hello Quasimodo!
Very interesting! I would also separate the words "religious" and "spiritual". I find myself also pondering the rest of the above. Religious institutions do seem to evolve into control of at least their own society, if not an attempt to control all parts of society. It is not God's intent for this to happen. However, man's free will brings him to make choices which may have originally begun with good intentions. Ultimately, man's greed for power and control take over regardless of whether or not original intentions were connected to religious purposes. Godless men will use religion as a means to an end. Likewise, "religious" men will use religion as a means to an end.
Edited to add: Hmmm, when "religious" men use religion as a means to an end, do they actually return to a state of godlessness?
Thank you for the thought exercise.
Blessings,
jo
Hello jo!
As you might guess, I take a more secular view of religious origins. When we were all hunter/ gatherers the concept of a shaman worked pretty well. A shaman's job was to visit with God (or Gods) by going into a trance (hallucinogens or stress induced) to intercede for his people. To tell God what his people needed.
After the invention of farming and herding people were much more dependent on the cooperation of weather. Something only God could accomplish. The sacrifice of animals and crops to God to assure God's help became important. A priestly class was established to grantee that all rites were performed correctly and at the correct times.
It's kind of interesting that the shaman's role and the priest's role seem to be opposites. The shaman told God what the people needed. The priest told the people what God needed.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Quasimodo wrote:The shaman told God what the people needed. The priest told the people what God needed.
And both of them told the people what he himself needed.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
