For former Mormons who became atheists

[_subgenius]

....Now, how about you try one on for size? Did your god create Evil, and conspire with Satan to murder Job's children?

V/R
Dr. Cam

Hello Mr. Dr. Cam,
1. Please, refrain from grouping me with Nipper, as a courtesy.
2. The "logical hoops" and "philosophy" put forth by Epicurus have long ago been dismantled by logic, reason, and common sense. Hedonism has long since fallen as well. Should you need guidance with the many fallacies found in that meme, please feel free to ask.

Now, with regards to your question about Job:
We can disregard the logical fallacy in your question for the sake of understanding the issue at hand.
I have to disagree with your choice of the word "conspire" - i consider that term to be one that characterizes this issue inadequately and serves only to throw the baby out with the bath water. When one reads Job 1:6-12 clearly there is no conspiracy, but rather something larger - anyone who knows this story knows that Job is tried and tested and ultimately is justly and generously rewarded.

Your post is not an uncommon one among people who have a cursory knowledge of Job.
This is really classic Old Testament teaching.

So, let us take a look at this "murder" closer: reference also 2 Cor 5:20
Job consider his first 10 kids to be "troubled", as evidenced by his prayers and sacrifices for them...and we also see them be critical and doubtful of God (see Job 8:3-4 and 9:2).

Job's first 10 kids mocked God by mixing His teachings with the bad habits from their mother, Dinah.
Dinah was a resentful and irritable - and loved neither God nor Job.
Job’s oldest son, Agnor was sexually obscene, coarse and egotistical.
Thumtl with his belligerent, overbearing, warlike and obnoxious spirit made himself hateful and annoying to his siblings.
Goters was a cheat, conniver, sneaky, and deceitful.
Hamal was a sarcastic, cynical, sneering, mocking, rude and scornful.
Qugma was gloomy and melancholy.
Ophlf was condescending and arrogant.
Dysta was ill-tempered and surly.
Lugal was cantankerous and sexually active with her brothers.
Ninsun was indifferent and also sexually active with her brothers.
Sidura was sexually promiscuous and a complainer.

(See also Habakkuk 2:15)
We also read that his children were eating and drinking when they met their demise, much like those who were eating and drinking in Noah's story, so likely a scene of debauchery - an illumination about always being ready (see also Matthew 24:44)
Yes, tragic that he would lose his children, but this tragedy is the point to the lesson...a lesson that is likely lost any other way.
Given the Law, it would seem that murder is an incorrect term, more correctly would be the term "justifiable homicide"

As to the question for God "creating evil"...likely too deep of a subject to handle here, especially in the context of Job.
But what of this "conspiracy" with Satan?
In Hebrew, the term Satan is simply a term given to anything or anyone that is in "opposition"....it is a titular term like Elohim, King, or President...not really belonging to a particular "person". We can discern this when reading Job and discovering that Satan is used to depict the angel that is doing God's directives and the jealous men.
So, in fact there is no conspiracy per se...because one must concede that everything was according to God's will.
As is often the case with Job's story, the discussion blossoms and expands beyond simplified characterizations about its meaning...there are several layers to his tale. Hopefully, you can realize that cursory summaries of what the story of Job depicts are quite inadequate and serve not as revealing but rather as deception.
Not everything can be "boiled down", but alas Decoction seems to be be an intellectual exercise that many "scientifically minded" people can not avoid.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

....Now, how about you try one on for size? Did your god create Evil, and conspire with Satan to murder Job's children?

V/R
Dr. Cam

Hello Mr. Dr. Cam,
1. Please, refrain from grouping me with Nipper, as a courtesy.

I'll see what I can do if you stop making blanket statements toward Atheists. :)

2. The "logical hoops" and "philosophy" put forth by Epicurus have long ago been dismantled by logic, reason, and common sense. Hedonism has long since fallen as well. Should you need guidance with the many fallacies found in that meme, please feel free to ask.

I believe you're conflating assertions with a demonstration. Please provide a demonstration of your logic, reason, and common sense in reference to Epicurus' statements.

Now, with regards to your question about Job:
We can disregard the logical fallacy in your question for the sake of understanding the issue at hand.
I have to disagree with your choice of the word "conspire" - i consider that term to be one that characterizes this issue inadequately and serves only to throw the baby out with the bath water. When one reads Job 1:6-12 clearly there is no conspiracy, but rather something larger - anyone who knows this story knows that Job is tried and tested and ultimately is justly and generously rewarded.

Your post is not an uncommon one among people who have a cursory knowledge of Job.
This is really classic Old Testament teaching.

So, let us take a look at this "murder" closer: reference also 2 Cor 5:20
Job consider his first 10 kids to be "troubled", as evidenced by his prayers and sacrifices for them...and we also see them be critical and doubtful of God (see Job 8:3-4 and 9:2).

Job's first 10 kids mocked God by mixing His teachings with the bad habits from their mother, Dinah.
Dinah was a resentful and irritable - and loved neither God nor Job.
Job’s oldest son, Agnor was sexually obscene, coarse and egotistical.
Thumtl with his belligerent, overbearing, warlike and obnoxious spirit made himself hateful and annoying to his siblings.
Goters was a cheat, conniver, sneaky, and deceitful.
Hamal was a sarcastic, cynical, sneering, mocking, rude and scornful.
Qugma was gloomy and melancholy.
Ophlf was condescending and arrogant.
Dysta was ill-tempered and surly.
Lugal was cantankerous and sexually active with her brothers.
Ninsun was indifferent and also sexually active with her brothers.
Sidura was sexually promiscuous and a complainer.

(See also Habakkuk 2:15)
We also read that his children were eating and drinking when they met their demise, much like those who were eating and drinking in Noah's story, so likely a scene of debauchery - an illumination about always being ready (see also Matthew 24:44)
Yes, tragic that he would lose his children, but this tragedy is the point to the lesson...a lesson that is likely lost any other way.
Given the Law, it would seem that murder is an incorrect term, more correctly would be the term "justifiable homicide"

So, you're in essence stating that killing those children was justified?

As to the question for God "creating evil"...likely too deep of a subject to handle here, especially in the context of Job.
But what of this "conspiracy" with Satan?
In Hebrew, the term Satan is simply a term given to anything or anyone that is in "opposition"....it is a titular term like Elohim, King, or President...not really belonging to a particular "person". We can discern this when reading Job and discovering that Satan is used to depict the angel that is doing God's directives and the jealous men.
So, in fact there is no conspiracy per se...because one must concede that everything was according to God's will.
As is often the case with Job's story, the discussion blossoms and expands beyond simplified characterizations about its meaning...there are several layers to his tale. Hopefully, you can realize that cursory summaries of what the story of Job depicts are quite inadequate and serve not as revealing but rather as deception.
Not everything can be "boiled down", but alas Decoction seems to be be an intellectual exercise that many "scientifically minded" people can not avoid.

Satan has to get the go ahead to kill those children. He and your god planned this out, and then the children were killed. That's pretty much all there is to it.

So. Did your god create Evil. Yes or no? And did your god conspire with Satan to have those children killed? Yes or no? I think we can safely infer that you do, indeed, believe your god conspired with Satan to have those children killed.

And you're ok with that?

To the OP... Here's yet another reason why I reject religion. Look what it does to the Believer's moral compass. He's not only ok with children being murdered if it's his god's will (whatever that means), but he calls is justifiable homicide. !!!

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_LittleNipper]

[Hello Mr. Dr. Cam,
1. Please, refrain from grouping me with Nipper, as a courtesy.

I'll see what I can do if you stop making blanket statements toward Atheists. :)

2. The "logical hoops" and "philosophy" put forth by Epicurus have long ago been dismantled by logic, reason, and common sense. Hedonism has long since fallen as well. Should you need guidance with the many fallacies found in that meme, please feel free to ask.

I believe you're conflating assertions with a demonstration. Please provide a demonstration of your logic, reason, and common sense in reference to Epicurus' statements.

Now, with regards to your question about Job:
We can disregard the logical fallacy in your question for the sake of understanding the issue at hand.
I have to disagree with your choice of the word "conspire" - i consider that term to be one that characterizes this issue inadequately and serves only to throw the baby out with the bath water. When one reads Job 1:6-12 clearly there is no conspiracy, but rather something larger - anyone who knows this story knows that Job is tried and tested and ultimately is justly and generously rewarded.

Your post is not an uncommon one among people who have a cursory knowledge of Job.
This is really classic Old Testament teaching.

So, let us take a look at this "murder" closer: reference also 2 Cor 5:20
Job consider his first 10 kids to be "troubled", as evidenced by his prayers and sacrifices for them...and we also see them be critical and doubtful of God (see Job 8:3-4 and 9:2).

Job's first 10 kids mocked God by mixing His teachings with the bad habits from their mother, Dinah.
Dinah was a resentful and irritable - and loved neither God nor Job.
Job’s oldest son, Agnor was sexually obscene, coarse and egotistical.
Thumtl with his belligerent, overbearing, warlike and obnoxious spirit made himself hateful and annoying to his siblings.
Goters was a cheat, conniver, sneaky, and deceitful.
Hamal was a sarcastic, cynical, sneering, mocking, rude and scornful.
Qugma was gloomy and melancholy.
Ophlf was condescending and arrogant.
Dysta was ill-tempered and surly.
Lugal was cantankerous and sexually active with her brothers.
Ninsun was indifferent and also sexually active with her brothers.
Sidura was sexually promiscuous and a complainer.

(See also Habakkuk 2:15)
We also read that his children were eating and drinking when they met their demise, much like those who were eating and drinking in Noah's story, so likely a scene of debauchery - an illumination about always being ready (see also Matthew 24:44)
Yes, tragic that he would lose his children, but this tragedy is the point to the lesson...a lesson that is likely lost any other way.
Given the Law, it would seem that murder is an incorrect term, more correctly would be the term "justifiable homicide"

So, you're in essence stating that killing those children was justified?

As to the question for God "creating evil"...likely too deep of a subject to handle here, especially in the context of Job.
But what of this "conspiracy" with Satan?
In Hebrew, the term Satan is simply a term given to anything or anyone that is in "opposition"....it is a titular term like Elohim, King, or President...not really belonging to a particular "person". We can discern this when reading Job and discovering that Satan is used to depict the angel that is doing God's directives and the jealous men.
So, in fact there is no conspiracy per se...because one must concede that everything was according to God's will.
As is often the case with Job's story, the discussion blossoms and expands beyond simplified characterizations about its meaning...there are several layers to his tale. Hopefully, you can realize that cursory summaries of what the story of Job depicts are quite inadequate and serve not as revealing but rather as deception.
Not everything can be "boiled down", but alas Decoction seems to be be an intellectual exercise that many "scientifically minded" people can not avoid.

Satan has to get the go ahead to kill those children. He and your god planned this out, and then the children were killed. That's pretty much all there is to it.

So. Did your god create Evil. Yes or no? And did your god conspire with Satan to have those children killed? Yes or no? I think we can safely infer that you do, indeed, believe your god conspired with Satan to have those children killed.

And you're ok with that?

To the OP... Here's yet another reason why I reject religion. Look what it does to the Believer's moral compass. He's not only ok with children being murdered if it's his god's will (whatever that means), but he calls is justifiable homicide. !!!

V/R
Dr. Cam

Would it matter to you if the children of Job were fully grown and throwing a party when they died? Are you going to live forever? How will you like to kick the bucket?

[_LittleNipper]

[quote="subgenius"][quote="Doctor CamNC4Me"]



God can prevent evil but then He would have to destroy all living things because since the Fall every living thing is evil. This would mean that all humanity would go to Hell. The present solution is the perfect one.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Would it matter to you if the children of Job were fully grown and throwing a party when they died?

Are you saying Job's children should be thankful because the Hebrew sky god was kind enough to snuff them out while they were having a good time?

Are you going to live forever? How will you like to kick the bucket?

Tyrion Lannister gives a very good answer to the same question, but I can't quote it in this forum because it involves human genitalia and naughty words.

[_LittleNipper]

Would it matter to you if the children of Job were fully grown and throwing a party when they died?

Are you saying Job's children should be thankful because the Hebrew sky god was kind enough to snuff them out while they were having a good time?

Are you going to live forever? How will you like to kick the bucket?

Tyrion Lannister gives a very good answer to the same question, but I can't quote it in this forum because it involves human genitalia and naughty words.

We are sinful, and God has provided for an wonderful eternity for those who love the Lord. Those that continue to hate God will never have a wonderful life to compare. Even a life of 900 years of only earthly delights pales to an eternity of wonder. by the way that male model doesn't look like that anymore --- though he might still turn on some toothless granny.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Oh come on, you totally wimped out and dodged my question, to wit:

Are you saying Job's children should be thankful because the Hebrew sky god was kind enough to snuff them out while they were having a good time?

[_LittleNipper]

Oh come on, you totally wimped out and dodged my question, to wit:

Are you saying Job's children should be thankful because the Hebrew sky god was kind enough to snuff them out while they were having a good time?

What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Who told you?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Who told you?

1) What do you believe?
I believe the story of Job as related in the Hebrew Tanakh is a myth, and that it serves as a poor basis for modern ethics.

2) Why do you believe it?
I don't.

3)Who told you?
You did.

So now that I've answered your questions, please answer mine: Are you saying Job's children should be thankful because the Hebrew sky god was kind enough to snuff them out while they were having a good time?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

M'narrah.