Former Stake President managing MormonThink

[_Darth J]

Anyway, why me, here is a Mormon Think article about your favorite talisman to ward off rational thinking: the "witnesses" to the Book of Mormon: http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

Please tear apart the logic of this article. Show no mercy.

Your link is a good case in point and it makes my case very well. The link does not refute the fact that the witnesses had a profound experience with the plates. Nor does it refute their testimonies. In fact, left alone with just that information MT provided, it would be very faith promoting. But they coud not leave it there. They had to bring up other experiences of people who had nothing to do with the 11 witnesses. They need to attempt to sow doubt by offering other experiences of other people who had no relationship to the witnesses.

Such is the nature of the site: to cast doubt and to cause doubt to anyone who investigates the LDS church and its members. Again, the tone invokes bias and ill motives toward the church.

In summary, why me is not able to articulate any factual or logical errors with this Mormon Think article, beyond "it's wrong to say the Church isn't true."

[_Darth J]

The link does not refute the fact that the witnesses had a profound experience with the plates. Nor does it refute their testimonies.

No, it calls into question the reliability and objective meaning of their testimonies. Due to the effects of ecclesiastical lobotomy, you are still unable to recognize what the issue even is: whether the claims of the Book of Mormon "witnesses" are empirical evidence of a vast Hebrew civilization in the pre-Columbian Americas.

In fact, left alone with just that information MT provided, it would be very faith promoting. But they coud not leave it there. They had to bring up other experiences of people who had nothing to do with the 11 witnesses. They need to attempt to sow doubt by offering other experiences of other people who had no relationship to the witnesses.

As soon as you are able to explain why the Book of Mormon witnesses should be believed, but other witnesses to other claimed events should not be believed, you'll let the board know, won't you?

Such is the nature of the site: to cast doubt and to cause doubt to anyone who investigates the LDS church and its members. Again, the tone invokes bias and ill motives toward the church.

Yes, why me. If you only cherry pick certain claims, and then talk about those claims in a vacuum, and divest yourself of any logic or reasoning ability, then the faith-promoting narrative can stand up to scrutiny. Thank you for identifying the point of Mormon Think's existence.

[_why me]

In summary, why me is not able to articulate any factual or logical errors with this Mormon Think article, beyond "it's wrong to say the Church isn't true."

Well, let me put it this way: lets say that there is a site called CatholicThink and the site is dealing with the visions of Bernedette. The site has the story and then, they give a critic interpretation by listing all the crazy visions that have been claimed by other catholics. It documents the statements of laity that claim to have the same experience: visions of the Virgin Mary. Then, it goes on to list how Bernedette's vision was only visionary and then lists other visionary experiences that are without catholic approval.

Why bother to do this if not to cast doubt about Bernedette? And this is why MormonThink is not about dealing in facts but it is about dealing in bias to lead Mormons to doubt. Would there be anything untruthful on the CatholicThink site? No. But we all know why the other visions are there for catholics to read, right?

[_hobo1512]

In summary, why me is not able to articulate any factual or logical errors with this Mormon Think article, beyond "it's wrong to say the Church isn't true."

Well, let me put it this way: lets say that there is a site called CatholicThink and the site is dealing with the visions of Bernedette. The site has the story and then, they give a critic interpretation by listing all the crazy visions that have been claimed by other catholics. It documents the statements of laity that claim to have the same experience: visions of the Virgin Mary. Then, it goes on to list how Bernedette's vision was only visionary and then lists other visionary experiences that are without catholic approval.

Why bother to do this if not to cast doubt about Bernedette? And this is why MormonThink is not about dealing in facts but it is about dealing in bias to lead Mormons to doubt. Would there be anything untruthful on the CatholicThink site? No. But we all know why the other visions are there for catholics to read, right?

Apples and oranges.

1. No Catholic is required to believe in St. Bernadette's vision, apparition, or miracles attributed to Lourdes.

2. Visions, crazy or otherwise by other Catholics are frequently discussed on lots of different anti-Catholic sites, as well as pro-Catholic sites. Again, no Catholic is obliged to believe in these.

3. Ever heard of Jack Chick? Ever heard of CARM? Those two sites do more to help the Catholic Church than hurt it. They make people think, and do research on their own. Some go toward the Catholic Church, others don't.

3. I don't know that the Catholic Church really cares what anyone else thinks about Bernadette, and Lourdes.

Keep in mind, the Catholic Church does investigate these claims. some can be explained with science, etc. others cannot. But again, no Catholic is obliged to believe them.

The Catholic Church doesn't try to put a spin on it's history like the Mormon church does. The Catholic Church doesn't tell people to stay away from material that isn't faith promoting. The Catholic Church's history is there for all to see, warts and all.

Over 1 billion and still growing says something doesn't it?

[_why me]

The Catholic Church doesn't try to put a spin on it's history like the Mormon church does. The Catholic Church doesn't tell people to stay away from material that isn't faith promoting. The Catholic Church's history is there for all to see, warts and all.

Over 1 billion and still growing says something doesn't it?

Have you been to Ireland lately? The church has lost scores of members because of the abuse scandals. And in the Czech Republic? In Italy? In Germany?

No spin on its history...my gosh where have you been? In a submarine? And the catholic church does tell people to stay away from non faith promoting material. In fact, the da vinci code is a case in point...and harry potter too.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... le-studies

http://acatholiclife.blogspot.co.uk/200 ... avoid.html

[_why me]

Apples and oranges.

1. No Catholic is required to believe in St. Bernadette's vision, apparition, or miracles attributed to Lourdes.

2. Visions, crazy or otherwise by other Catholics are frequently discussed on lots of different anti-Catholic sites, as well as pro-Catholic sites. Again, no Catholic is obliged to believe in these.

3. Ever heard of Jack Chick? Ever heard of CARM? Those two sites do more to help the Catholic Church than hurt it. They make people think, and do research on their own. Some go toward the Catholic Church, others don't.

3. I don't know that the Catholic Church really cares what anyone else thinks about Bernadette, and Lourdes.

Keep in mind, the Catholic Church does investigate these claims. some can be explained with science, etc. others cannot. But again, no Catholic is obliged to believe them.

The Catholic Church doesn't try to put a spin on it's history like the Mormon church does. The Catholic Church doesn't tell people to stay away from material that isn't faith promoting. The Catholic Church's history is there for all to see, warts and all.

Over 1 billion and still growing says something doesn't it?

What are catholics required to believe?

I would love to see an indepth history of the catholic church written by the vatican. But...no such luck yet. The pope has a series of books out but...it is a whitewash of history. But that is okay. All was well during the medieval church according to the pope.

[_3sheets2thewind]

http://mormonthink.com/

The last two managing editors resigned from the church after the LDS leadership called them to church courts for writing about church history and doctrine, as well as working on the MormonThink website.

.

Liar,liar pants on fire. The last two editors were not called to church courts for writing about church history or doctrine. If that were the case, Richard Bushman and many others would be called into court also. The were called to church courts for writing against the LDS church.

Whyne, CFR.

Also, drop the pahoranic style, diversion via basing an unrelated subject, is just a pathetic attempt by pahoran to numb his butthurt.

No need to bash the Catholics, surely you think Mormons are better than such childishness.

While MT may not post known falsehood, it hardly is a website charitable to the Chruch.

[_why me]

No need to bash the Catholics, surely you think Mormons are better than such childishness.
.

Bashing catholics? Hardly. But when catholics come here and bash Mormonism well...one must give it back to them. Instead of giving me a lecture please use your words for them .

Politeness doesn't cut it with hobo. He just attacks and attacks and blames his Irishness for it.

[_why me]

Whyne, CFR.

.

What CFR do you need? Do you really believe that they were called to church courts for writing church history? Many members have written about church history but faced no court. Bushman is a case in point.

Read the site and then tell why you think they were called into the court.

[_hobo1512]

The Catholic Church doesn't try to put a spin on it's history like the Mormon church does. The Catholic Church doesn't tell people to stay away from material that isn't faith promoting. The Catholic Church's history is there for all to see, warts and all.

Over 1 billion and still growing says something doesn't it?

Have you been to Ireland lately? The church has lost scores of members because of the abuse scandals. And in the Czech Republic? In Italy? In Germany?

No spin on its history...my gosh where have you been? In a submarine? And the catholic church does tell people to stay away from non faith promoting material. In fact, the da vinci code is a case in point...and harry potter too.

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... le-studies

http://acatholiclife.blogspot.co.uk/200 ... avoid.html

People leave, people come back. Funny how the media forgets that part. Even so, the Catholic church isn't hemorraging members like the Mormon church is. You haven't seen any rep from the Catholic church making the statement they are losing members at an alarming rate have you? Mormons however tend to leave and never go back.

Many people will leave because of the scandals, just like when Mormons get busted doing the same thing. It is to be expected, and understood.

The Catholic Church did condemn Da Vinci code, but stopped short of telling people not to see it. They didn't even condemn Harry Potter, but were "concerned". Again, didn't tell people not to see it. Big difference.

You haven't provided anything showing where the Catholic Church has spun their history, so I would have to say you fail on that. Miserably I might add. Now, would you like us to produce items showing where the Mormons have? Be careful how you answer, you might not like what comes next.