Former Stake President managing MormonThink

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_hobo1512
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _hobo1512 »

Tobin wrote:
hobo1512 wrote:Your first post to me was full of name calling, and it didn't subside for several posts.

I hate to tell you, Darth, pinned you on that one. To say it is "hearsay" because it doesn't support smith or moroni, is a non existent argument in support of your position.
Really? I'd like you to provide a single quote where I made a personal attack at all. I've only stated your VIEWS are stupid and WHY I think so. That is completely fair game. You clearly don't understand the difference.

And as I've already said, it is hearsay. It isn't supported by Joseph Smith or Moroni making these statements to others. Joseph Smith had much to say on the matter and could have clearly and often stated this and does not. DarthJ knows it is hearsay and unsupportable. It is just more misrepresentations by him as usual.

Ok, keep telling yourself that little buddy. Make sure you wear your helmet when you go out. Maybe even your tin foil hat.

I would provide you with a quote or two, but you've repeatedly demonstrated a lack of reading comprehension, so it would fall on deaf ears.

But hey, as long as you see calling someone an "anti" a term of endearment, we're all good.

Shalom
_Darth J
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:And as I've already said, it is hearsay. It isn't supported by Joseph Smith or Moroni making these statements to others. Joseph Smith had much to say on the matter and could have clearly and often stated this and does not. DarthJ knows it is hearsay and unsupportable. It is just more misrepresentations by him as usual.


Dear Board Readers:

Tobin does not understand what hearsay is. He appears to believe that hearsay means, "I heard someone say something." That isn't hearsay. Hearsay means a person with no personal knowledge of a fact is trying to use the statement of a third party to prove that a fact is true. That is both the legal and the vernacular definition of hearsay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_in ... States_law

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay

In the case of Lucy Mack Smith quoting Joseph Smith that I gave, the statement by definition is not hearsay. Tobin asserted that Joseph Smith never referred to the Hill Cumorah as the Hill Cumorah. The issue he raised is whether Joseph Smith ever made the statement. I am not attempting to prove that the most famous drumlin in New York is in fact the site of the genocide of the Nephites and the Jaredites. I am attempting to prove that Joseph Smith made the statement that this drumlin was the Hill Cumorah.

Hearsay would be if Lucy Mack had written something like, "Hyrum told me Joseph said the hill is the Hill Cumorah." But that is not what happened. Lucy Mack Smith had personal, direct knowledge that Joseph Smith made the statement referring to this hill as "Cumorah." She was there and heard him say it. This is not hearsay; it is direct evidence of the statement being made.

As a side note, I certainly hope that Tobin starts his own church soon, since his marvelous space alien Star Trek god has such a rich message for Tobin to share with the world.
_hobo1512
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _hobo1512 »

Darth J wrote:
Dear Board Readers:

Tobin does not understand what hearsay is. He appears to believe that hearsay means, "I heard someone say something." That isn't hearsay. Hearsay means a person with no personal knowledge of a fact is trying to use the statement of a third party to prove that a fact is true. That is both the legal and the vernacular definition of hearsay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_in ... States_law

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay

In the case of Lucy Mack Smith quoting Joseph Smith that I gave, the statement by definition is not hearsay. Tobin asserted that Joseph Smith never referred to the Hill Cumorah as the Hill Cumorah. The issue he raised is whether Joseph Smith ever made the statement. I am not attempting to prove that the most famous drumlin in New York is in fact the site of the genocide of the Nephites and the Jaredites. I am attempting to prove that Joseph Smith made the statement that this drumlin was the Hill Cumorah.

Hearsay would be if Lucy Mack had written something like, "Hyrum told me Joseph said the hill is the Hill Cumorah." But that is not what happened. Lucy Mack Smith had personal, direct knowledge that Joseph Smith made the statement referring to this hill as "Cumorah." She was there and heard him say it. This is not hearsay; it is direct evidence of the statement being made.

As a side note, I certainly hope that Tobin starts his own church soon, since his marvelous space alien Star Trek god has such a rich message for Tobin to share with the world.


Yo!! Tobin!!

Some pretty good information here for you from Darth.

Soak it up little buddy.
_Tobin
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _Tobin »

hobo1512 wrote:Yo!! Tobin!!

Some pretty good information here for you from Darth.

Soak it up little buddy.
Actually, DarthJ is misrepresenting quite a bit. It is hearsay because it is unsubstantiated. DarthJ is playing fast and loose with definitions in the hope to mislead as usual. The statement by Lucy is an uncorroborated account since no one else heard Joseph Smith say this. And both witnesses happen to be dead!!! There is also the fact that Joseph Smith never repeated it to anyone else. He never stated it himself in the copious volumes of written material attributed to him and so on. It simply can't be verified and isn't supportable. And so on it goes. Again, hobo as I've said - your views aren't based on sound information, especially if you are listening to DarthJ. Bear in mind, DarthJ's grasp of Mormonism is tenuous at best. He doesn't even understand that God lives in the Celestial Kingdom according to Mormonism. I really wouldn't rely on someone like that for a sound understanding of anything having to do with Mormonism.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

http://www.hillcumorah.org/cumorah.php

http://www.LDS.org/ensign/1978/11/the-l ... rah+battle

As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New York. - Elder Mark E. Petersen, Ensign, Nov. 1978


Well. That settles the question. The Second Watson Letter, and the mopologetic argument is moot. The Hill Cumorah, the same one mentioned in the Book of Mormon, is located in Western New York. An Apostle of the Lord, in an official publication, from the official LDS website, says it is so.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _Chap »

Tobin wrote:
hobo1512 wrote:Yo!! Tobin!!

Some pretty good information here for you from Darth.

Soak it up little buddy.
Actually, DarthJ is misrepresenting quite a bit. It is hearsay because it is unsubstantiated. DarthJ is playing fast and loose with definitions in the hope to mislead as usual. The statement by Lucy is an uncorroborated account since no one else heard Joseph Smith say this. And both witnesses happen to be dead!!! There is also the fact that Joseph Smith never repeated it to anyone else. He never stated it himself in the copious volumes of written material attributed to him and so on. It simply can't be verified and isn't supportable. And so on it goes. Again, hobo as I've said - your views aren't based on sound information, especially if you are listening to DarthJ. Bear in mind, DarthJ's grasp of Mormonism is tenuous at best. He doesn't even understand that God lives in the Celestial Kingdom according to Mormonism. I really wouldn't rely on someone like that for a sound understanding of anything having to do with Mormonism.


Now there's just hobo shouting to Tobin through the keyhole of his locked apartment, where he can be alone and commune with The Voice without rude people sniggering at him.

But, as ever, one must Think Of The Children who may be reading this board. So to deal with some of the points above - where I am always prepared to defer to DarthJ as the real expert -

It is hearsay because it is unsubstantiated. DarthJ is playing fast and loose with definitions in the hope to mislead as usual.


Nope. Follow DarthJ's helpful links, and you will see that in US law, hearsay is any "statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted." Lucy Mack Smith's evidence as to what she heard Joseph Smith say is not hearsay in that regard, but direct evidence as to what she heard Joseph Smith say, which is "the matter asserted". (The definition of hearsay says nothing about testimony having to be "substantiated" in order not to be hearsay, whatever Tobin means by that.)

The statement by Lucy is an uncorroborated account since no one else heard Joseph Smith say this.


True, but it is still evidence, and evidence of some weight - after all, what reason would Lucy have to lie about a matter of this kind? And she was certainly in a good position to report many things that she heard from Joseph in conversation.

(May one point out that the foundational doctrines of Mormonism depend crucially on statements allegedly made by Moroni to Smith. as well as by the Mormon deity and his son to Smith in the various versions of the First Vision, all of which are completely uncorroborated by any other person?)

And both witnesses happen to be dead!!!


So Tobin discounts all testimony of what happened outside the range of people living today? That would, of course, include all the Book of Mormon witnesses, who presumably don't matter in Tobinism.

There is also the fact that Joseph Smith never repeated it to anyone else. He never stated it himself in the copious volumes of written material attributed to him and so on.


That is no surprise, since Smith hardly said anything publicly about the Book of Mormon and the events described in it. So what?

Frankly, Tobin has made a very poor job of undermining the obvious weight attached to Lucy Mack Smith's testimony that she heard Joseph Smith make statements implying that for him the Hill Cumorah was in New York - as the CoJCoLDS has long claimed that it was.

(Of course there was no "Hill Cumorah" anywhere, since the Book of Mormon is fiction. But that is not the point here.)
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_tapirrider
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _tapirrider »

Tobin wrote:The statement by Lucy is an uncorroborated account since no one else heard Joseph Smith say this.


We can't even believe his own mother?

I would like to know why Joseph Smith did not correct Oliver Cowdery if it wasn't in New York. Cowdery published this in 1835 and Joseph did not say a thing about it being wrong -

Messenger and Advocate, Vol II, No. 1, October, 1835, page 196
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v2n01.htm

"Another circumstance would prevent a wearing of the earth: in all probability, as soon as timber had time to grow, the hill was covered, after the Nephites were destroyed, and the roots of the same would hold the surface."

I would like to know why Joseph Smith did not correct Orson Pratt if it wasn't in New York. Pratt published this in 1840 and Joseph did not say a thing about it being wrong -

An Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions, and of the Late Discovery of Ancient American Records, pages 21-22
http://archive.org/stream/aninteresting ... 0/mode/2up

"A great and terrible war commenced between them, which lasted for many years, and resulted in the complete overthrow and destruction of the Nephites. This war commenced at the Isthmus of Darien, and was very destructive to both nations for many years. At length, the Nephites were driven before their enemies, a great distance to the North, and North-east; and having gathered their whole nation together, both men and women, and children, they encamped on and round about the hill Cumorah, where the records were found which is in the State of New-York, about two hundred miles west of the city of Albany."

We can't believe Joe's own mother and Joseph did not correct Oliver Cowdery or Orson Pratt. You know, when I think about this, no one else heard Moroni talk to Joseph Smith. Why should I believe that he did?
_Darth J
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _Darth J »

Again, this is for the benefit of board readers who might be mislead by Tobin's ludicrous babbling, not Tobin himself (since he is impervious to objective reality).

Tobin wrote:
hobo1512 wrote:Yo!! Tobin!!

Some pretty good information here for you from Darth.

Soak it up little buddy.
Actually, DarthJ is misrepresenting quite a bit. It is hearsay because it is unsubstantiated.


"Substantiated" is irrelevant to whether a statement is hearsay or not.

DarthJ is playing fast and loose with definitions in the hope to mislead as usual.


No, I am being accurate with definitions, and since that does not work in favor of Tobin's tacit acknowledgement that New York State contains no evidence of a genocidal Nephite battle circa 421 A.D., he is inventing out of thin air this idea that hearsay means that more than one person has to hear someone make a statement.

The statement by Lucy is an uncorroborated account since no one else heard Joseph Smith say this.


That must be why Oliver Cowdery wrote this in the July 1835 Messenger & Advocate:

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N. Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is, because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that route. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward Canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by.
At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.
By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah
. (It is printed Camorah, which is an error.) In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren.


Joseph Smith's right hand man, scribe for the majority of the Book of Mormon, and one of the Three Witnesses, probably came up with this totally on his own, completely irrespective of anything Joseph Smith ever said, and printed it in the Church's newspaper without any gainsaying from Joseph Smith.

And both witnesses happen to be dead!!!


Okay. Since Joseph Smith is dead, we cannot consider anything he ever said, and any discussion of Mormonism is now moot.

There is also the fact that Joseph Smith never repeated it to anyone else. He never stated it himself in the copious volumes of written material attributed to him and so on. It simply can't be verified and isn't supportable. And so on it goes.


D&C 128:20

And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed.

Again, hobo as I've said - your views aren't based on sound information, especially if you are listening to DarthJ.


Yes. You should listen to Tobin's super space alien Star Trek god if you want sound information.

Bear in mind, DarthJ's grasp of Mormonism is tenuous at best. He doesn't even understand that God lives in the Celestial Kingdom according to Mormonism. I really wouldn't rely on someone like that for a sound understanding of anything having to do with Mormonism.


If anyone wonders what the hell this is about, in another thread some time ago, Tobin insisted that Elohim currently lives in the Celestial Kingdom. However, in LDS cosmology, it is actually the planet Earth that will become the Celestial Kingdom after the final judgment. The place God currently lives is on or near Kolob, as we learn from pagan Egyptian funerary texts. You can go find that thread if you have nothing else to do (read a book, watch TV, repeatedly hit yourself in the head with a hammer, etc.). It was yet another example where Tobin is shown evidence refuting his point that he can't contradict, so he offers the riposte of, "Nuh-uh!"
_Tobin
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _Tobin »

tapirrider wrote:
Tobin wrote:The statement by Lucy is an uncorroborated account since no one else heard Joseph Smith say this.


We can't even believe his own mother?

I would like to know why Joseph Smith did not correct Oliver Cowdery if it wasn't in New York. Cowdery published this in 1835 and Joseph did not say a thing about it being wrong -

Messenger and Advocate, Vol II, No. 1, October, 1835, page 196
http://www.centerplace.org/history/ma/v2n01.htm

"Another circumstance would prevent a wearing of the earth: in all probability, as soon as timber had time to grow, the hill was covered, after the Nephites were destroyed, and the roots of the same would hold the surface."

I would like to know why Joseph Smith did not correct Orson Pratt if it wasn't in New York. Pratt published this in 1840 and Joseph did not say a thing about it being wrong -

An Interesting Account of Several Remarkable Visions, and of the Late Discovery of Ancient American Records, pages 21-22
http://archive.org/stream/aninteresting ... 0/mode/2up

"A great and terrible war commenced between them, which lasted for many years, and resulted in the complete overthrow and destruction of the Nephites. This war commenced at the Isthmus of Darien, and was very destructive to both nations for many years. At length, the Nephites were driven before their enemies, a great distance to the North, and North-east; and having gathered their whole nation together, both men and women, and children, they encamped on and round about the hill Cumorah, where the records were found which is in the State of New-York, about two hundred miles west of the city of Albany."

We can't believe Joe's own mother and Joseph did not correct Oliver Cowdery or Orson Pratt. You know, when I think about this, no one else heard Moroni talk to Joseph Smith. Why should I believe that he did?


Joseph Smith didn't run around correcting every speculation and rumor by everyone. We don't know Joseph Smith said that to Lucy and he probably didn't know she even wrote what she did (or that he even saw it). Now, let's see what he actually did say on the matter shall we? Josepth Smith was the editor of the Times and Seasons and wrote the following:

Times and Seasons 3:927
Since our ‘Extract’ was published from Mr. Stephens’ ‘Incidents of Travel,’
&c., we have found another important fact relating to the truth of the Book of Mormon.
Central America, or Guatimala [sic], is situated north of the Isthmus of Darien and
once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south.—The city of
Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior, and rebuilt afterwards, stood upon
this land as will be seen from the following words in the book of Alma:—‘And now it
was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful,
and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi, and
the land of Zarahemla was nearly surrounded by water: there being a small neck of land
between the land northward and the land southward.’ [See Book of Mormon, 3d edition,
page 280-81] (see Alma 22:32.)
It is certainly a good thing for the excellency and veracity, of the divine
authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that the ruins of Zarahemla have been found where
the Nephites left them: and that a large stone with engravings upon it, as Mosiah said;
and a ‘large round stone, with the sides sculptured in hieroglyphics,’ as Mr. Stephens
has published, is also among the left remembrances of the, (to him,) lost and unknown.
We are not agoing [sic] to declare positively that the ruins of Quirigua are those of
Zarahemla, but when the land and the stones, and the books tell the story so plain, we
are of [the] opinion, that it would require more proof than the Jews could bring to prove
the disciples stole the body of Jesus from the tomb, to prove that the ruins of the city in
question, are not one of those referred to in the Book Mormon.
It may seem hard for unbelievers in the mighty works of God, to give credit to
such a miraculous preservation of the remains, ruins, records and reminiscences of a
branch of the house of Israel: but the elements are eternal, and intelligence is eternal, and
God is eternal, so that the very hairs of our heads are all numbered. It may be said of man
he was and is, and is not; and of his works the same, but the Lord was and is, and is to
come and his works never end; and he will bring every thing into judgment whether it be
good, or whether it be evil; yea, every secret thing, and they shall be revealed upon the
house tops. It will not be a bad plan to compare Mr. Stephens' ruined cities with those in
the Book of Mormon: light cleaves to light, and facts are supported by facts. The truth
injures no one, and so we make another Extract from Stephens’ “Incidents of Travel in
Central America.”


Now, which is a more reasonable position - Joseph Smith's ACTUAL statements about where something is likely to be (which can be confirmed) OR speculations by others without any response from Joseph Smith stating it was true? The critics are looking rather silly at this point now aren't they.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Darth J
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Re: Former Stake President managing MormonThink

Post by _Darth J »

Tobin wrote:Joseph Smith didn't run around correcting every speculation and rumor by everyone. We don't know Joseph Smith said that to Lucy and he probably didn't know she even wrote what she did (or that he even saw it).


That's right. And Lucy Mack didn't know if she wrote her biography of her most famous son, and didn't know if she was standing there and heard Joseph Smith say the words she attributes to him.

Tobin's inability to maintain a coherent thought is here demonstrated by his objection that we don't know if Joseph saw what Lucy wrote, but at the same time Joseph Smith did not run around correcting every speculation or rumor by everyone. If Joseph Smith did not run around correcting every rumor and speculation by everyone, why would it matter whether he had seen what his mother wrote? And what Lucy Mack wrote is not "rumor or speculation." She is not offering her personal opinion about Cumorah. She is relating what she heard Joseph say about Cumorah.

As to Joseph Smith not running around and correcting every speculation and rumor by everyone, that is somewhat belied by the official Joseph Smith History indicating that its purpose is to correct the rumors that have been going about, and by the revelations in the D&C indicating that nobody but Joseph Smith gets to receive revelations for the Church.

Times and Seasons 3:927
Since our ‘Extract’ was published from Mr. Stephens’ ‘Incidents of Travel,’
&c., we have found another important fact relating to the truth of the Book of Mormon.
Central America, or Guatimala [sic], is situated north of the Isthmus of Darien and
once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south.—The city of
Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior, and rebuilt afterwards, stood upon
this land as will be seen from the following words in the book of Alma:—‘And now it
was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful,
and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi, and
the land of Zarahemla was nearly surrounded by water: there being a small neck of land
between the land northward and the land southward.’ [See Book of Mormon, 3d edition,
page 280-81] (Brackets in original quote, emphasis added; see Alma 22:32.)
It is certainly a good thing for the excellency and veracity, of the divine
authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that the ruins of Zarahemla have been found where
the Nephites left them: and that a large stone with engravings upon it, as Mosiah said;
and a ‘large round stone, with the sides sculptured in hieroglyphics,’ as Mr. Stephens
has published, is also among the left remembrances of the, (to him,) lost and unknown.
We are not agoing [sic] to declare positively that the ruins of Quirigua are those of
Zarahemla, but when the land and the stones, and the books tell the story so plain, we
are of [the] opinion, that it would require more proof than the Jews could bring to prove
the disciples stole the body of Jesus from the tomb, to prove that the ruins of the city in
question, are not one of those referred to in the Book Mormon (T&S 3:927, emphasis in
original quote.)
It may seem hard for unbelievers in the mighty works of God, to give credit to
such a miraculous preservation of the remains, ruins, records and reminiscences of a
branch of the house of Israel: but the elements are eternal, and intelligence is eternal, and
God is eternal, so that the very hairs of our heads are all numbered. It may be said of man
he was and is, and is not; and of his works the same, but the Lord was and is, and is to
come and his works never end; and he will bring every thing into judgment whether it be
good, or whether it be evil; yea, every secret thing, and they shall be revealed upon the
house tops. It will not be a bad plan to compare Mr. Stephens' ruined cities with those in
the Book of Mormon: light cleaves to light, and facts are supported by facts. The truth
injures no one, and so we make another Extract from Stephens’ “Incidents of Travel in
Central America.”


Now, which is a more reasonable position - Joseph Smith's ACTUAL statements about where something is likely to be (which can be confirmed) OR speculations by others without any response from Joseph Smith stating it was true? The critics are looking rather silly at this point now aren't they?


No. Joseph Smith is looking rather silly when he declares that everyone else has the burden of proving that the Mayan ruins at Quirigua are not Zarahemla.

This editorial also says nothing about Cumorah. This is not what "Joseph Smith actually said on the matter" of whether the hill where he supposedly got the Golden Plates was the Hill Cumorah.
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