Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Kishkumen]

I'm not disagreeing with most of this. But we still have John telling her to leave via text before all of this and, though maybe not completely reliable but certainly fits with the documents, we have Rosebud claiming John wanted her out, gone. That was without question, I'd say, because of the affair. As Lem has pointed out, that alone can be grounds for sexual harassment.

I think his behavior in slamming a bunch of unnamed community people and ending the conferences, the going back to church thing..all seem to expose alittle more what happened. That all was just weird.

I was responding to your claim that Joanna handled things badly. I see no evidence of her handling things badly. This additional set of suspicions about John does not point to Joanna doing anything wrong.

And I think we all get why this was a mess absent any dubious or highly hair-splitting claim of “sexual harassment.” We are talking about Mormons here. They aren’t supposed to have affairs and those attacking Dehlin or scrutinising him and the rest of them, also being Mormons, would make a big deal out of any perceived impropriety. This was, after all, the era of the Greg Smith hit piece threat.

I don’t think John’s actions are admirable—quite the opposite, but I also don’t think this is a clearcut case of sexual harassment. In a different situation it would most definitely have been something to be reported as possible sexual harassment. In some situations, depending on policy and law, John would have been fired for sexual harassment. But, as I said, that depends.

But all of this is really beside the point. Rosebud has no legal recourse. People are using Rosebud’s obsessive fixation on this for their own purposes, whether they be to nurse the same obsession (Rosebud), attack “the patriarchy” (KK), or tarnish the reputation of a well known critic of the LDS Church (KE). That is why this nothing burger is being blown out of proportion.

[Lem]

Pep pep!

Hey man, no big deal here...just saying it seems to me getting involved was a bad move. There is likely more to the story than what John fed ya and more than what the board new. I get the impulse to defend your friend. And your probably fine since Rosebud doesn't have much and comes off as unreliable.

In the end, even though things went several different directions than expected, I think it was a great silver lining that all these documents and statements finally come to light. In that sense, the podcast was very successful! Rosebud has been teasing and playing games for so long, and now it seems pretty much everything's out there. Maybe there can be some resolution.

[Kishkumen]

It’s all cool, my brother.

But I rankle a bit when people tell me I was defending Dehlin.

Or even thank me for defending John Dehlin.

I wasn’t defending Dehlin. I was trying to get some important documents and witness statements out of obscurity and to the public.

This was evidence the Open Stories Foundation board had known about for almost a decade, but hadn’t released it or talked about it publicly in spite of Rosebud’s frequent attempts to mischaracterize the situation.

They kept all this close to their vest out of deference to Rosebud and her mental health, as well I’m sure out of not wanting to douse gasoline on a small flame and hoping she would just get over it and go away.

Eventually that flame became a conflagration courtesy of Kwaku, KK and Company (with the consent if not encouragement of Rosebud), and the board decided the time had come to speak of many things.

“Heat not a fire for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself.”

You’ve done a really amazing job, too! I also want to thank you for stirring James Patterson so he would bring his document stash here to us. I found the whole thing extremely clarifying as to Rosebud’s methods and motives. In my view, the documents shoot her credibility to hell, and I, for one, feel vindicated. I always said she had nothing, and she had nothing. She was withholding evidence because the evidence did not support her claim. The evidence blows her claim to smithereens.

I get the wisdom of policies against affairs in the workplace. For me, work is work, not a place to muddy things with my personal life. Affairs between parties of differing stature in the workplace are even worse. John was dumb and sloppy, as we who have watched him for years would expect from him at that time. But this is off the charts disproportional. At the end of the day, disproportionality is going to be our undoing. Too many people are tearing each other to shreds mercilessly with it. This ugliness is a fine example.

[Moksha]

Eventually, that flame became a conflagration courtesy of Kwaku, KK, and Company (with the consent if not encouragement of Rosebud), ...

With this new group under the Church Covert Ops wing, I wonder what other divisiveness is scheduled? Hope they stay away from RFM and Bill Reel.

[drumdude]

“Heat not a fire for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself.”

[warbreaker]

From Rosebud's timeline as shared here: viewtopic.php?p=21493#p21493 , it appears that the relationship predated her hiring.



I have a really hard time with this. They had a consensual affair. It ended messily.

Riddle me this. My wife started an at home business. I support her in it. It was successful. I quit my full time job and work for her. She is definitely in charge. What happens if we were to get divorced? What if she wants me to quit? What if I am continually sending her texts begging her to take me back? Are you saying if I got fired this would be sexual harrassment against me? Really? Once terms apply to such a broad range of circumstances....

Yes, if you got fired and the inappropriate relationship was a factor. Yes, there are "a broad range of circumstances" that can be defined as sexual harassment.

I'm still not buying it. One, it was an inappropriate relationship because they were both having an affair. The consensual affair started before she started working for Open Stories Foundation. So it wasn't inappropriate from a workplace standpoint. People work with people they are involved with all the time. Reference me and my wife.

Here is a great article from Forbes about the ins and outs of hiring and firing your spouse / ex-spouse. No where does it say that firing an exspouse upon ending the relationship is "sexual harrassement"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frawleypol ... a5ebff14ef

If either of you feels that ongoing employment isn’t a good idea, make sure that you follow your company’s standard process of employee termination. Work with your HR advisor to evaluate the same considerations you would for someone else in that position—the appropriate time period for them to receive severance pay, for example, based on how long it may take to secure a new position.

[Lem]

...No where does it say that firing an exspouse upon ending the relationship is "sexual harrassement"...

I think you missed my comment:

Yes, if you got fired and the inappropriate relationship was a factor....

[Lem]

This was evidence the Open Stories Foundation board had known about for almost a decade, but hadn’t released it or talked about it publicly in spite of Rosebud’s frequent attempts to mischaracterize the situation.

They kept all this close to their vest out of deference to Rosebud and her mental health, as well I’m sure out of not wanting to douse gasoline on a small flame and hoping she would just get over it and go away.

Did the Open Stories Foundation representatives tell you that? If so, I can understand why. They really didn't comport themselves well over this whole situation. In the end, in spite of the unbelievability of Rosebud's versions, what became very clear was that there was definitely a case for sexual harassment that Open Stories Foundation handled very, very badly. The other thing I learned was that JD's behavior, overall, was unbelievably shameful. I am impressed his wife was able to get past all of this. That is to her credit, totally. I hope she has peace.

[dastardly stem]

It’s all cool, my brother.

But I rankle a bit when people tell me I was defending Dehlin.

Or even thank me for defending John Dehlin.

I wasn’t defending Dehlin. I was trying to get some important documents and witness statements out of obscurity and to the public.

This was evidence the Open Stories Foundation board had known about for almost a decade, but hadn’t released it or talked about it publicly in spite of Rosebud’s frequent attempts to mischaracterize the situation.

They kept all this close to their vest out of deference to Rosebud and her mental health, as well I’m sure out of not wanting to douse gasoline on a small flame and hoping she would just get over it and go away.

Eventually that flame became a conflagration courtesy of Kwaku, KK and Company (with the consent if not encouragement of Rosebud), and the board decided the time had come to speak of many things.

“Heat not a fire for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself.”

Fair. Shouldn't be relying what Old Testament hers are saying about it.

My mind feels all twisted up on this now. Ultimately it appears Dehlin begged her to leave so he could be free of the affair, and she was, as she felt it, forced out (there's no sign she was going to be brought back). That is sexual harassment in the work place.

The thing with RBs mischatacterizations...hard to say much. She alleged sexual harassment and the documents bare that out, as I see it. She was full of allegation and absolutely empty on backing it up. I don't recall her allegations being more than sexual harassment. I guess there is the additional claim that Dehlin manipulated her during their affair. Meh...he's a bad boyfriend. Seems obvious at this point.

[Res Ipsa]

I’m losing track of the documents. Have any of the NHHRC documents been linked?

RI unless I misunderstand what you are asking about, there is a link under the video to at least one of those.

Thanks!