True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

[_Robert F Smith]

Verifiable marks of authenticity?

Do tell.....

I listed a number of verifiable marks of authenticity above, and there are many more. I'll give another example:

My friend the late Rev. Welsey P. Walters (an anti-Mormon Presbyterian minister) once published his view that the Book of Mormon prophecy that Jesus would be born 600 years after Lehi left Jerusalem was a major anachronism. Why? Because one could not shoehorn those 600 years into the time from that exit from Jerusalem in 597 BC (the proven first year of the reign of King Zedekiah of Judah) and the birth of Jesus before the well-known death of Herod the Great in the Spring of 4 BC.

In fact, however, the major Long Count calendar of the Maya and other Mesoamerican cultures used a 360-day year. This is the same 5,000-year long calendar cycle which ends and resets on Dec 21, 2012. Such a year-count places Jesus' birth in 5 BC, where most scholars place it, exactly 600 Long Count years after Lehi left Jerusalem.

In addition, the Book of Mormon tells us that Jesus lived 33 years, dying on the fourth day of the 34th year. We already know from the New Testament that Jesus died at Passover, which is in the Spring. Counting by 360-day years, we lose 6 months time in 33 years, putting Jesus' birth in the Fall, probably on Jewish New Year in late September, a time when shepherds were still in the fields (not so on Dec 25, which was originally a pagan holiday).

[_SteelHead]

Great, now show that the meso Americans were the Nephites and you will have something. And the Herod date is debatable ranging between 7 to 2 bc by most experts. Verifies nothing, except that Mormon apologists will grasp at straws.

[_Robert F Smith]

Robert,
Can you supply a list of said verifiable markers?

I don't know of a specific, comprehensive list, and there wouldn't be space enough here for it anyhow. One place where you can find at least a hundred good ones is in Donald Parry, Daniel Peterson, and John Welch, eds., Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon (FARMS, 2002), which is online at http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publications/books/?bookid=8. There are many others not listed there, but it is sometimes a matter of taste which ones seem most compelling. The FAIR website also has a great deal of good, up-to-date material at http://www.fairlds.org/.

I presented a paper on "Book of Mormon Theologies: A Thumbnail Sketch" at the annual meeting of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology this past September 21, 2012, in Logan, Utah, and it will appear in a forthcoming issue of Element. I discussed my thesis there on the argument from probability in more detail and with full documentation. I show generally in that paper that the Book of Mormon provides a coherent and sound philosophical basis for the Mormon religion.

[_Franktalk]

In fact, however, the major Long Count calendar of the Maya and other Mesoamerican cultures used a 360-day year.

Have you ever read The Coming Prince by Anderson? A great read about prophecy. He includes his feeling about the nation Israel, this before 1900. His insight is well worth reading. He goes through the 360 day Biblical year.

[_SteelHead]

We had this discussion before Frank. It only works if the birthyear of Christ is where the gregorian calendar puts it. Which most likely isn't the case. For Robert's stuff to work it has to be 4 bc, for your stuff year 1.... Which is it?

[_Tobin]

Great, now show that the meso Americans were the Nephites and you will have something. And the Herod date is debatable ranging between 7 to 2 bc by most experts. Verifies nothing, except that Mormon apologists will grasp at straws.

I think your demands are sillly. Robert has pointed out some very interesting facts and your response is that he demonstrate that all of the inhabitants of ancient meso America were Nephites. Were all the inhabitants of the ancient Middle East Israelis? The Book of Mormon is no different than the Bible. It deals with only certain peoples that came to the Americas, just as the Bible deals with primarily the ancient Israelis.

[_LittleNipper]

So you are saying the financial sucess of a nation is directly related and attributable to their obedience to Christian god?

It all depends on what you mean. My parents raised a son and 2 girls. We had one black and white TV until 1966. We saw the Ice Capades in Philadelphia, that the Smithsonian in DC., visited Niagra Falls, and drove out to Indiana to visit friends. We had one car, one telephone, and a newspaper delivery. We lived in a split level. Not what I would call wealthy but we were HAPPY. Whose HAPPY now? We would drive to Camden New Jersey, park our car and take the train into the City. Who would do that now? I'd ride my bike into town 4 miles away to Christmas shop when I was 10 (very common in the day). Who does that now? I do firmly believe that if a nation is totally poor, something is TOTALLY wrong. Is America poor? Well, it can no longer call itself rich ---- maybe the rich can call themselves rich, but at what cost? Israel under Solomon was once the richest nation in the world. Is it still? Show me a nation that believes in any other god, where the people are for the most part totally happy and content. I know of NONE. Sure there are rich people everywhere, but at what cost?

[_SteelHead]

Ok ok, show that the Nephites used the Mayan long calendar.

Better?

[_Tobin]

Ok ok, show that the Nephites used the Mayan long calendar.

Better?

Yes, that is a very good question.

[_SteelHead]

Nipper,
There are rich, happy non Christian nations.

There is no way to prove your correlations.

The yardstick of righteousness by which you mete is totally subjective to the definition of righteousness, which is not universal, not even across Christian denominations.