True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

[_LittleNipper]

Great, now show that the meso Americans were the Nephites and you will have something. And the Herod date is debatable ranging between 7 to 2 bc by most experts. Verifies nothing, except that Mormon apologists will grasp at straws.

I think your demands are sillly. Robert has pointed out some very interesting facts and your response is that he demonstrate that all of the inhabitants of ancient meso America were Nephites. Were all the inhabitants of the ancient Middle East Israelis? The Book of Mormon is no different than the Bible. It deals with only certain peoples that came to the Americas, just as the Bible deals with primarily the ancient Israelis.

I see no other purpose in the Book of Mormon than to take the eyes off of Israel and move it to the New World, OR its real intend is to make the Bible appear to be as phoney as the Book of Mormon can be seen to be. In either case, people are going to hell because they are placing their faith in the validity of an additional book and their adherence --- or they become atheistic over the false claims that also tend to ruin one's faith in anything including the actual Word of God (the Bible).

[Guest]

Great, now show that the meso Americans were the Nephites and you will have something. And the Herod date is debatable ranging between 7 to 2 bc by most experts. Verifies nothing, except that Mormon apologists will grasp at straws.

I am well aware of the debate on the fringes about the date of the death of Herod the Great, but that is attributable to fundamentalist unease with the facts and with the scholarly consensus that he died in early 4 BC. The best source on this consensus is Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology, 2nd ed. (Hendrickson, 1998), 291-301 and The Archaeology of the New Testament (Princeton Univ. Press, 1992), 25. In his Handbook, 298, Finegan frankly states that 4 BC is "the widely accepted dating of the death of Herod the Great."

As to the Nephites, Mulekites, and Jaredites having been Mesoamericans, just ask yourself some very simple questions: Where in the New World do we find the only literate, high culture? Where in that New World do we find cement construction and other architectural features described in the Book of Mormon? Where do we find the most exact calendar of the ancient world? Where do we find populations in the millions in relatively small regions? Where do we find highly organized mass warfare and human sacrifice, etc.?

[_LittleNipper]

Nipper,
There are rich, happy non Christian nations.

There is no way to prove your correlations.

The yardstick of righteousness by which you mete is totally subjective to the definition of righteousness, which is not universal, not even across Christian denominations.

List them for me... The reality is that Protestant nations always tended to be wealthier and more educated than Roman Catholic ones. Could that be because the Catholic ones were in error? So, again list for me all the pagan nations where the people live modestly, happy, and healthy lives. My guess is that Christian missionary work had something to do with it to some degree or another.

[_Tobin]

I see no other purpose in the Book of Mormon than to take the eyes off of Israel and move it to the New World, OR its real intend is to make the Bible appear to be as phoney as the Book of Mormon can be seen to be. In either case, people are going to hell because they are placing their faith in the validity of an additional book and their adherence --- or they become atheistic over the false claims that also tend to ruin one's faith in anything including the actual Word of God (the Bible).

I disagree. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to get one to seek, speak with and follow God. If that is your definition of a people "going to hell", then your views are far off the mark.

[_LittleNipper]

I see no other purpose in the Book of Mormon than to take the eyes off of Israel and move it to the New World, OR its real intend is to make the Bible appear to be as phoney as the Book of Mormon can be seen to be. In either case, people are going to hell because they are placing their faith in the validity of an additional book and their adherence --- or they become atheistic over the false claims that also tend to ruin one's faith in anything including the actual Word of God (the Bible).

I disagree. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to get one to seek, speak with and follow God. If that is your definition of a people "going to hell", then your views are far off the mark.

What must one do to be saved from eternal damnation and see God in heaven --- according to Mormonism?

[_SteelHead]

Fork a new thread on salvation from damnation or be condemned?

[_Tobin]

What must one do to be saved from eternal damnation and see God in heaven --- according to Mormonism?

Have faith in Christ and follow him.

[_SteelHead]

Great, now show that the meso Americans were the Nephites and you will have something.
I am well aware of the debate on the fringes about the date of the death of Herod the Great, but that is attributable to fundamentalist unease with the facts and with the scholarly consensus that he died in early 4 BC. The best source on this consensus is Jack Finegan, Handbook of Biblical Chronology, 2nd ed. (Hendrickson, 1998), 291-301 and The Archaeology of the New Testament (Princeton Univ. Press, 1992), 25. In his Handbook, 298, Finegan frankly states that 4 BC is "the widely accepted dating of the death of Herod the Great."

As to the Nephites, Mulekites, and Jaredites having been Mesoamericans, just ask yourself some very simple questions: Where in the New World do we find the only literate, high culture? Where in that New World do we find cement construction and other architectural features described in the Book of Mormon? Where do we find the most exact calendar of the ancient world? Where do we find populations in the millions in relatively small regions? Where do we find highly organized mass warfare and human sacrifice, etc.?

And add to those questions: where do you find a culture that evidences Jewish or Christian religious practices? Where is one that uses horses, chariots, and steel? Where is the massive fields of remains from the last battles of two separate cultural extinction events? Etc, etc, etc.

Again grasping at straws.

Methinks you are confusing verifiable with speculative...

[_SteelHead]

Nipper,
There are rich, happy non Christian nations.

There is no way to prove your correlations.

The yardstick of righteousness by which you mete is totally subjective to the definition of righteousness, which is not universal, not even across Christian denominations.

List them for me... The reality is that Protestant nations always tended to be wealthier and more educated than Roman Catholic ones. Could that be because the Catholic ones were in error? So, again list for me all the pagan nations where the people live modestly, happy, and healthy lives. My guess is that Christian missionary work had something to do with it to some degree or another.

Singapore, Japan, S Korea, EAU, Saudi Arabia, etc etc
Again your criteria is highly subjective.
--edit--
Just some more: Ireland, Italy, Spain, Hong Kong, Portugal, Taiwan...... Etc etc which all score similarly to the USA in a quality of life index and which are not protestant Christian nations.

It seems you are arguing for protestant Christian cultural superiority. Good luck with that.

[_Robert F Smith]

Case in point.
Jskains: Sure. A lot of religion requires supernatural components. A man who alone can make universes is a supernatural thing. So if He wanted the gold to be very light, then He can make it that way.

God, making gold light since 1820.

If the atomic weight changes..... is it still gold?

It is certainly true that some religions "require supernatural components," but Mormonism does not. Mormon theology posits a natural God in a natural universe (or multiverse). What appear to be "miracles" are really a result of awe from people who don't have a natural explanation ready at hand. Yet today we will hear a General Authority wryly compare his gps device to Lehi's Liahona. We now regard as ordinary technology which heretofore would be called "miraculous." Why? Because our perspective has changed.

"Gold light" was never necessary, as I pointed out in October of 1984 -- see my article online at http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publications/books/?bookid=71&chapid=847.