True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

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_Philo Sofee
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Tobin wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:What must one do to be saved from eternal damnation and see God in heaven --- according to Mormonism?
Have faith in Christ and follow him.


You KNOW dang good and well you are simply lying here. This is simply NOT what Mormonism teaches. Why the fear for honesty? You mean there is nothing in Mormonism about believing God's spokesman? Or anything about temples? Or anything about The Book of Mormon? Mormonism has simply never been this oh so simplistic and everyone single solitary ONE OF US on this board are more than WELL AWARE of it. It is responses like this that has truly caused me to simply distrust what anyone who believes in Mormonism has to say. I simply no longer believe what is said.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Robert F. Smith:
LDS President John Taylor said that "The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being." (Taylor, An Examination into and an Elucidation of the Great Principle of the Mediation and Atonement of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Co., 1882], 201).


And Mormon scholar Brant Gardner has simply destroyed this myopic non-revelatory speculation of Taylor. Why spout the man's speculation when it serves your purpose but ignore the far more careful, realistic, and verifiable work of Gardner which has demonstrated without question that the "White God" MYTH in Mesoamerica has exactly nothing to do with any kind of Savior, let alone Jesus?
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Tobin
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _Tobin »

Philo Sofee wrote:You KNOW dang good and well you are simply lying here. This is simply NOT what Mormonism teaches. Why the fear for honesty? You mean there is nothing in Mormonism about believing God's spokesman? Or anything about temples? Or anything about The Book of Mormon? Mormonism has simply never been this oh so simplistic and everyone single solitary ONE OF US on this board are more than WELL AWARE of it. It is responses like this that has truly caused me to simply distrust what anyone who believes in Mormonism has to say. I simply no longer believe what is said.

Actually, I know you don't understand Mormonism very well. That is all that has been established here by your rant however.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Philo Sofee
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Robert F. Smith:
Indeed, there was a very ancient resurrection cult built around the original Quetzalcoatl, as L. Sejourne has emphasized (Sejourne in Revista Mexicana de Estudios Antropologicos, 16 (1960), 77-90 (Sejourne, Burning Water: Thought and Religion in Ancient Mexico [Berkeley: Shamballa, 1976]. See also David Carrasco, Quetzalcoatl and the Irony of Empire: Myths and Prophecies in the Aztec Tradition [Univ. of Chicago Press, 1982]; Burr Cartwright, The Phoenix of the Western World: Quetzalcoatl and the Sky Religion [Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1982]).


Pure Christian bias in interpreting an ancient culture to fit one's own. Again, the Mormon scholar Brant Gardner has demonstrated beyond any question that this kind of wishful thinking is just worthless. And notice the dates of your sources here Robert...... nothing changes faster than Mesoamerican studies, and the most recent you offer here is 1982?
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Tobin wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:You KNOW dang good and well you are simply lying here. This is simply NOT what Mormonism teaches. Why the fear for honesty? You mean there is nothing in Mormonism about believing God's spokesman? Or anything about temples? Or anything about The Book of Mormon? Mormonism has simply never been this oh so simplistic and everyone single solitary ONE OF US on this board are more than WELL AWARE of it. It is responses like this that has truly caused me to simply distrust what anyone who believes in Mormonism has to say. I simply no longer believe what is said.

Actually, I know you don't understand Mormonism very well. That is all that has been established here by your rant however.


Nice dodge.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Philo Sofee
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Robert F. Smith:
Arthur Miller & Nancy Farriss state that, despite the European view of seeming incompatibility between Christian and pagan Maya concepts, “from a Maya point of view, . . such a combination may represent a perfectly coherent system,” i.e., “developing their own cult along lines already established” (in Hammond & Willey, Maya Archaeology & Ethnohistory, 239).

Miller and Farriss further state "that Christ could have been identified in the indigenous mind with Quetzalcoatl or the Maya equivalent, Kukulcan” (“Religious Syncretism in Colonial Yucatan: The Archaeological and Ethnohistorical Evidence from Tancah, Quintana Roo,” in Hammond & Willey, Maya Archaeology & Ethnohistory, 239).

LDS President John Taylor said that "The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being." (Taylor, An Examination into and an Elucidation of the Great Principle of the Mediation and Atonement of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Co., 1882], 201).

Indeed, there was a very ancient resurrection cult built around the original Quetzalcoatl, as L. Sejourne has emphasized (Sejourne in Revista Mexicana de Estudios Antropologicos, 16 (1960), 77-90 (Sejourne, Burning Water: Thought and Religion in Ancient Mexico [Berkeley: Shamballa, 1976]. See also David Carrasco, Quetzalcoatl and the Irony of Empire: Myths and Prophecies in the Aztec Tradition [Univ. of Chicago Press, 1982]; Burr Cartwright, The Phoenix of the Western World: Quetzalcoatl and the Sky Religion [Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1982]).

Slaughter of an innocent animal (or human) and the sharing of its flesh are central to Judeo-Christian and Mesoamerican tradition (Nancy M. Farriss, “Sacrifice and Communion in Colonial Maya Religion,” Abstracts of Papers of the 44th International Congress of Americanists, Manchester, England, 1982 (Manchester Univ., School of Geography, 1982), 15; Miller & Farriss in Hammond & Willey, Maya Archaeology & Ethnohistory, 239, on resurrection).

Michael Graulich found compelling evidence of Paradise Lost & Regained, along with Death, Rebirth, and Reward or Punishment in Mesoamerican tradition (Graulich, “Afterlife in Ancient Mexican Thought,” in Bruno Illius and Matthias Laubscher, eds., Circumpacifica: I, Mittel- und Südamerika: Festschrift für Thomas S. Barthel [Frankfort: Peter Lang, 1990], 165-188).

See especially
Norman Hammond and Gordon R. Willey, eds., Maya Archaeology and Ethnohistory, Second Cambridge Symposium on Recent Research in Mesoamerican Archaeology, August 29-31, 1976 (Austin: Univ. of Texas Press, 1979), xvi, citing J. E. S. Thompson, Maya History and Religion (Norman: Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1970).
David H. Kelley, Christian Influences in the Ancient Maya Religion (Calgary: Univ. of Canada, 2004).


Nice sources, but how does this demonstrate Nephites among the Maya? Or that Nephites were in Mesoamerica? Truly, without being sarcastic, this is so overly generalized as to be quite useless for evidence. So far as i am aware, only Mormon scholars try to put Nephites among the Maya......there has not been serious and validated scholarship showing that the Maya were Christian or Christianized.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_LittleNipper
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _LittleNipper »

SteelHead wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:[List them for me... The reality is that Protestant nations always tended to be wealthier and more educated than Roman Catholic ones. Could that be because the Catholic ones were in error? So, again list for me all the pagan nations where the people live modestly, happy, and healthy lives. My guess is that Christian missionary work had something to do with it to some degree or another.


Singapore, Japan, S Korea, EAU, Saudi Arabia, etc etc
Again your criteria is highly subjective.
--edit--
Just some more: Ireland, Italy, Spain, Hong Kong, Portugal, Taiwan...... Etc etc which all score similarly to the USA in a quality of life index and which are not protestant Christian nations.

It seems you are arguing for protestant Christian cultural superiority. Good luck with that.


Actually, South Korea has a very high Christian population that goes back to the era of the Koren War. Japan is one I thought of also. But that nation is very committed to their traditions which tend to include everyone in that culture and not just an elite ---- for the most part. Hong Kong has a lot of poor. As for Spain, Italy, etc., it would seem rather that the US has slipped rather than those countries getting better. An average US citizen of the 1950's had a much better lifestyle than most of those quaint countries have even today.
_SteelHead
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _SteelHead »

Most of those quaint countries.....?
I am going to bet you have never left the US. You are speaking from ignorance and arrogance, and it is showing.

But anyway I provided a list that showed the premise to be bogus. Some of those countries scored higher than the US on quality of life index. 5 out of the top 10 in the index were predominantly catholic. The US scores 13th.

by the way S. Korea is 18% protestant and 10% catholic. Not a Christian nation by any stretch of the definition, especially as you already condemned the catholics.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_LittleNipper
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _LittleNipper »

SteelHead wrote:Most of those quaint countries.....?
I am going to bet you have never left the US. You are speaking from ignorance and arrogance, and it is showing.

But anyway I provided a list that showed the premise to be bogus. Some of those countries scored higher than the US on quality of life index. 5 out of the top 10 in the index were predominantly catholic. The US scores 13th.

by the way S. Korea is 18% protestant and 10% catholic. Not a Christian nation by any stretch of the definition, especially as you already condemned the catholics.

Sir, people wouldn't visit them if they all looked like New York City... What would be the point. Actually, the Roman Catholic church is more protestant today then many protestant churches. And though Roman Catholicism has some serious issues in doctrine (and not the least of this has allowed homosexual priests to prey on alter boys), it still fights against abortion. But in South Korea Christianity has made great strides in a Buddist/Confucian area. And again, you would really have to admit that the US of the 1950's was decades ahead of the world. Part of this was because of World War II. But it is obvious that America was spared much in the way of war.

by the way:Freedom of religion is protected under South Korea’s constitution. Roughly half of the South Korean population actively practice some form of religion. Most religious believers in South Korea follow Christianity (29.2% of the population) and Buddhism (22.8%). Although only 0.2% of South Koreans identify themselves as Confucianists, Korean society remains highly imbued with Confucian values and beliefs. A small minority of South Koreans practice Islam, Shamanism (traditional spirit worship), and Chondogyo ("Heavenly Way"); 46.5% of South Koreans practice no religion.
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Re: True Philosophical Defenses of Mormonism

Post by _SteelHead »

Nipper, wasn't your comment a few post backs that catholic countries were poorer and worse educated? Pick a position and stick with it.........

And now all of sudden you are counting the Catholics in south Korea in the total Christian count where previously you were treating them as a bad thing.

More than 60% of that country is pagan or atheist or something you originally considered a detriment. In no way supports the thesis that Christian protestant nations are more successful.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
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