Misconceptions about the Mormon Church (U.K.)

[_Cicero]

Joseph Smith shooting his pistol at his assailants does not make him not a martyr. The word 'martyrdom' does not require that one just lay down and take death. Witness all the islamic "martyrs" who die in combat against the infidels.

I do protest at Joseph Smith being considered a martyr, however. I don't believe that he was killed because he wouldn't renounce his beliefs or whatever. He was killed because of his screwing around with lots of women, political shenanigans, destroying the press, etc. He was killed because of things he did, not because of things he believed.

by the way, the video from the UK was pretty lame. It seems to have been made by people with a wholly weak understanding of what the issues really are. They are believers who are responding to perceived persecution, but they don't really know what the problems are that they are responding to. It's what I might expect if my mom or my sister made a video in defense of the church.

Personally, I don't like to use the term "martyred" but I don't like "killed" either. I instead say that Joseph was "murdered" because, whatever the mob's motivations were, what they did was illegal. I believe that the evidence is overwhelming that Joseph committed crimes for which he should have been tried and punished (destroying the press, bigamy, etc.). The mob was composed of premeditated murderers who also should have been tried and severely punished for their crimes. I am a lawyer and I know all about the various faults of our legal system, but I still believe in the rule of law and due process. Unlike ldsfaqs, I do not believe in vigilante justice.

[_why me]

Okay they have now re-enabled the comments. I've tried (again) to post, but my post is awaiting moderation.

Here's what LDS Europe is saying about Joseph being jailed.

He went willingly to Carthage Jail on trumped up charges knowing that he was going to be killed. The false charges were made against him because he would never renounce his religion or the fact that he had seen a vision of God and the Saviour. He was a martyr.

Here's my response, just in case it is not allowed.

LDS Europe, they were not false charges. Joseph was jailed for ordering the destruction of the printing press. The Nauvoo Expositor exposed Joseph's practice of polygamy and his belief that he would be a theocratic King. Please, please check the history.

Actually, it was a trumped up charge. Mormon presses were also destroyed by mobs and yet, no one was jailed for doing so. Also, the charges did not merit jail time and the offer was made to make amends. The charges were trumped up and Joseph paid for them with his life. He was being tried for treason against the state of Illinois. Also the city council was also arrested but released on bail. Joseph wasn't because of the treason charge. You really need to get your head straight about what happened.

[_why me]

Personally, I don't like to use the term "martyred" but I don't like "killed" either. I instead say that Joseph was "murdered" because, whatever the mob's motivations were, what they did was illegal. I believe that the evidence is overwhelming that Joseph committed crimes for which he should have been tried and punished (destroying the press, bigamy, etc.). The mob was composed of premeditated murderers who also should have been tried and severely punished for their crimes. I am a lawyer and I know all about the various faults of our legal system, but I still believe in the rule of law and due process. Unlike ldsfaqs, I do not believe in vigilante justice.

Joseph was being tried for teason and not for the destruction of the Nauvoo press. The city council also ordered the destruction of the press but they were released on bail. Why not Joseph? Because he was being tried for treason and there was an agenda against him. It was a trumped up charge and he knew it.

[Guest]

Personally, I don't like to use the term "martyred" but I don't like "killed" either. I instead say that Joseph was "murdered" because, whatever the mob's motivations were, what they did was illegal. I believe that the evidence is overwhelming that Joseph committed crimes for which he should have been tried and punished (destroying the press, bigamy, etc.). The mob was composed of premeditated murderers who also should have been tried and severely punished for their crimes. I am a lawyer and I know all about the various faults of our legal system, but I still believe in the rule of law and due process. Unlike ldsfaqs, I do not believe in vigilante justice.

Joseph was being tried for teason and not for the destruction of the Nauvoo press. The city council also ordered the destruction of the press but they were released on bail. Why not Joseph? Because he was being tried for treason and there was an agenda against him. It was a trumped up charge and he knew it.

All of which is completely irrelevant to the point I made . . .

I didn't make any claim for why he was actually in Carthage jail at the time. I just said that I believe he committed crimes for which he should have been tried and punished. He did not deserve to be unlawfully murdered by a vigilante mob.

[_SteelHead]

Joseph Smith was arrested for causing a riot due to his permitting the city marshal and his deputies to destroy a press ‘ which had been declared a nuisance by the city council. Joseph Smith paid the bail for this misdemeanor charge, so in order to keep him in jail without bail, the charge was changed to treason, which was a felony. This arrest was illegal on the part of the state of Illinois because a felony could not be charged without a preliminary hearing to see if the charges were warranted.

The treason charge was based on the fact that Joseph Smith had declared martial law in Nauvoo, which he legally had the right to do and which the circumstances may have warranted. Therefore Joseph Smith was not being held on any plural marriage charges at all.

Trumped up..... No. Illegal, quite possibly.

[_Mary]

Hi Why Me,

You said:

Actually, it was a trumped up charge. Mormon presses were also destroyed by mobs and yet, no one was jailed for doing so. Also, the charges did not merit jail time and the offer was made to make amends. The charges were trumped up and Joseph paid for them with his life. He was being tried for treason against the state of Illinois. Also the city council was also arrested but released on bail. Joseph wasn't because of the treason charge. You really need to get your head straight about what happened.

Why Me, I have found this website to be quite helpful.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f ... ehome.html

By Douglas O. Linder (2012)
UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI-KANSAS CITY (UMKC) SCHOOL OF LAW

I'm always willing to learn something new, but I don't see how you can object to what I stated. Initially, that is why Joseph was arrested (the destruction of the printing press). What was in it was actually later shown to be correct and not false. Jacob Cochran was jailed for bigamy. Surely Joseph could have been brought before the law on that fact alone and he knew it. ??

[_why me]

I'm always willing to learn something new, but I don't see how you can object to what I stated. Initially, that is why Joseph was arrested (the destruction of the printing press). What was in it was actually later shown to be correct and not false. Jacob Cochran was jailed for bigamy. Surely Joseph could have been brought before the law on that fact alone and he knew it. ??

He was jailed for treason and not for the printing press. It wasn't just Joseph who ordered the destruction of the press. Also, the members of the city council who were all released on bail ordered the destruction. But not Joseph. He was jailed on a more serious charge, which was trumped up. Treason.

[_why me]

Trumped up..... No. Illegal, quite possibly.

The treason charge jailed him. Not the printing press. All city council members were released on bail for ordering the printing press destroyed. But the state had other plans for Joseph.

[_Tobin]

I'm always willing to learn something new, but I don't see how you can object to what I stated. Initially, that is why Joseph was arrested (the destruction of the printing press). What was in it was actually later shown to be correct and not false. Jacob Cochran was jailed for bigamy. Surely Joseph could have been brought before the law on that fact alone and he knew it. ??

He was jailed for treason and not for the printing press. It wasn't just Joseph who ordered the destruction of the press. Also, the members of the city council who were all released on bail ordered the destruction. But not Joseph. He was jailed on a more serious charge, which was trumped up. Treason.

It seems to me that it is standard practice of the critics of Mormonism to make up facts or use innuendo when the real facts don't work for them. That is all that is going on here.

[_Mary]

Good grief... This says it better than I can.

June 12, 1844
An arrest warrant, on the charge of inciting a riot resulting in the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor's press, is issued in Carthage for Joseph Smith. Smith files a writ of habeas corpus with the Municipal Court for the City of Nauvoo. After a hearing before the Nauvoo court, the arrest warrant is dismissed and Smith is found not guilty on the rioting charge.
June 13, 1844
Non-Mormon citizens of Hancock County meet in Carthage and adopt a resolution expressing outrage with the legal proceedings the day before in the Nauvoo Municipal Court. The resolution castigates "the wicked and abominable Mormon leaders" and demands that all Mormons in the county either denounce Smith or move to Nauvoo and warns that a "war of extermination" against the Mormons might be necessary.
June 16, 1844
Joseph Smith is urged to go to Carthage to appear before a judge and answer the charges specified in the June 12 writ. Smith writes a letter asking Governor Ford to come to Nauvoo to help resolve the controversy. Smith instructs the Nauvoo Legion to resist should a mob of non-Mormons attack Nauvoo.
June 17, 1844
Joseph and Hyrum Smith agree to appear before Judge Daniel H. Wells to answer to the charge that they inciting a riot that led to the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor's press.
June 18, 1844
Smith issues a declaration of martial law for Nauvoo. Smith gives a final speech to the Nauvoo Legion in which he says, "I am willing to sacrifice my life for your preservation."
June 22, 1844
The personal narrative (diary) of Joseph Smith comes to an end. Fearing imminent arrest and/or death, Smith crosses the Mississippi River into Iowa and makes plans to flee to the Rockies.
June 23, 1844
Informed that if he failed to surrender to authorities a mob might attack Nauvoo, Smith abandons his plans to flee west and returns to Nauvoo.
June 25, 1844
Joseph and Hyrum Smith enter Carthage around midnight and go the Hamilton House hotel. In the morning, Governor Ford meets with the Smiths. The two Smiths voluntarily submit for arrest on the charge of rioting. Later that day, they are also charged with treason (for declaring martial law), a capital crime. Justice of the Peace Robert Smith orders Joseph and Hyrum to be committed without bail to jail. A hearing is scheduled for June 29.

My bold.

From the above link which uses primary sources which are also available to view. It makes for interesting reading.