Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Res Ipsa]

Yeah, because obsessively trying destroy a person’s life over a 10-year old incident involving someone else is exactly like chatting on a message board.

Is that the only possible interpretation?

What about people who want Dehlin's following to be aware of his problematic behaviours?

It is when that is literally what JP is trying to do. Is JD sexually harassing women today?

[Meadowchik]

Is that the only possible interpretation?

What about people who want Dehlin's following to be aware of his problematic behaviours?

I know you have alluded to Dehlin's "problematic behaviours" before. What are they?

I'll see what I can do to properly answer this with thoroughness and specific examples.

Please be patient. It'll probably have to wait until next week, when I've done with exams.

[Res Ipsa]

Good luck with your exams!

[Dr Exiled]

I know you have alluded to Dehlin's "problematic behaviours" before. What are they?

I'll see what I can do to properly answer this with thoroughness and specific examples.

Please be patient. It'll probably have to wait until next week, when I've done with exams.

No problem.

[Kishkumen]

This is a point very well taken.

Part of what is fascinating to me and probably triggers some of my obsessive qualities is how the above applies to John himself. In his uncompromising pursuit of taking down the church, he ultimately became many of the things he came to loathe about Joseph Smith and the church, although on a much smaller level of course. He repeated many of the same mistakes Joseph made and adopted many of the same qualities that Joseph did. I feel like I left the church and allowed myself to get sucked into a mini version of the church all over again. That's on me. But I think John has made a living of keeping people in faith crisis, keeping them in a vicious cycle of outrage and anger and using his content to do so. I think that completely contradicts what he says his mission is. I think his business model is centered on keeping people in this trauma cycle and I don't feel it's a bad thing to try and minimize his influence.

I knew I liked you, JP. You're fundamentally a good egg.

You are raising a lot of interesting and important questions. I would love to see these become the focus of a lot of serious discussion. Discussion of this kind might actually obviate a crusade to defame John Dehlin with shaky allegations (or allegations that appear shaky to those who do not have your perspective and conviction).

Here is my question: Do you think JD has sufficient introspection to confront this possibility? Maybe he does. I sometimes feel like I underestimate him, but I usually tend to think he is not approaching life with that kind of reflective nature.

I often wonder about this "faith in transition" community, if there is such a thing. People can get stuck in this transition, never actually moving on, and it could be that all of the materials JD produces have a tendency to keep people there while providing him a decent living wage. But do you think that he is the sort of diabolical philosopher type who would really get that? Or is he like most people who land on something, like, say, selling junk on the internet to people who have too much junk, and don't really work through the further ramifications of their actions?

I have long thought the latter, but I could be wrong.

There are many business models that are successful but ultimately harmful. One might argue that our entire civilization right now stands at the top of the entire mountain of such misbegotten and deleterious methods destroying people and the world in the name of wealth, diversion, foolishness, ignorance, and pleasure. I like this kind of argument. It is interesting and worthwhile. By all means let's work out what might be wrong with Dehlin's business model.

I realize such a mindset opens me up to criticism and ridicule. But then I also observe here a board that spends inordinate amounts of time obsessing over peculiarities of Mormonism that will never, ever change.

So I guess I would ask many of you the same question: If everyone concedes that the church isn't going anywhere, what's the point of this board? If the church actually was founded by a sophisticated con man in the mid 1800s, what can possibly come from arguing about it now? Are you all just wanting to smear the church's name because you don't like what they're doing? Do the church's followers deserve to know or something?

The point of this board is to provide, at no charge, a place for people who are interested in LDS-related stuff or who have some connection to the Mormon world to come and discuss things, argue about things, and socialize. You are very welcome to participate to any extent you like, up to and including criticizing John Dehlin or any other public figure in the Mormosphere. You will be asked to back up your arguments with evidence. You may find that last piece of advice useful.

[jpatterson]

Yeah, because obsessively trying destroy a person’s life over a 10-year old incident involving someone else is exactly like chatting on a message board.

I think you can do better than this rhetorical style of setting up ridiculous strawmen. It's lazy.

[jpatterson]

It is when that is literally what JP is trying to do. Is JD sexually harassing women today?

Hard to tell. If he is we probably won't out about it for 10 years or so.

[Kishkumen]

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Nowhere have I suggested we start a message board about John Dehlin. But I keep getting told on a message board where people spend their free time discussing stuff they have zero influence over that I'm wasting my time obsessing over something I have zero influence over.

The man has a point!

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Yeah, because obsessively trying destroy a person’s life over a 10-year old incident involving someone else is exactly like chatting on a message board.

I think you can do better than this rhetorical style of setting up ridiculous strawmen. It's lazy.

The lack of self-awareness is astonishing.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

This reminds me...something I totally forgot about. I started a thread a couple of days ago asking what is good and bad about Mormonstories. your take would be quite appreciated there. One thing about John and mormonstories is they have tried to paint the Church as harming people..which it might have. But there are plenty of people who swear the Church has been a godsend, and provides nothing but goodness and benefit. How do we weigh the good against the bad? Same type of idea with Mormonstories...how do we consider the good and bad and draw a conclusion as to whether it is ultimately hurting or helping?

This place is mostly about sharing ideas related to Mormonism.

That was a really good thread opener, Stem. Thank you for starting that thread.