Le Grand Richards lying again

[_Mittens]

In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 71

Chapter 8

Evidences Of The Divine Authenticity Of The Book of Mormon
We have considered the Book of Mormon as a companion volume of scripture (the stick of Joseph, a record of the "other sheep" Jesus promised to visit) that the Lord promised he would join unto the Bible (the stick of Judah) and make them one in his hand. Now it seems proper that we should mention briefly a few of the evidences of the divinity of the Book of Mormon.
70One of the greatest evidences is the testimony of the three witnesses to whom the Angel Moroni showed the plates and bore witness that they were translated by the gift and power of God. This testimony we have already quoted in its entirety; it appears in the front of each copy of the Book of Mormon, together with the testimony of the eight witnesses, to whom Joseph Smith was permitted to show the plates. Not one of these witnesses ever denied his testimony, even though each was subjected to much persecution and ridicule.

Le Grand Richards lying again

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#witnesses

But, all three witnesses testified of other visions and heavenly messages which the LDS Church rejects. For example, David Whitmer said, "In June, 1838, God spoke to me again by His own voice from the heavens and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints' " (An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 27). All three witnesses apostatized from the LDS Church, and Joseph Smith and other LDS leaders accused them of lying, stealing, cheating, counterfeiting, defrauding, and persecuting the LDS (Times and Seasons, Vol. I, pp. 22-23, 81). Yet, LDS Apostle John Widtsoe refers to the three witnesses, as well as the other eight, as men of "spotless reputation" (Joseph Smith — Seeker After Truth, pp. 338-339). If the three witnesses were of "spotless reputation" prior to their involvement in Mormonism, how did they become so corrupt while involved with the "one true Church?" Devout LDS claim that none of the three witnesses ever denied their testimony. But, the official Mormon publication Times and Seasons, Vol. II, p. 482, says that Oliver Cowdery did deny the B. of M., even though LDS claim Oliver returned to the LDS Church. The records show that he and his family joined the Methodist Protestant Church in Tiffin, Ohio, in about 1841, where Oliver served as secretary. When he died in 1850, he was buried by a Methodist minister, John Sexsmith, in Richmond, Missouri. David Whitmer belonged to at least three of the Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood. Martin Harris had been a member of at least five religious groups prior to becoming a Mormon, and he joined several others after he left Mormonism. Brigham Young's brother, Phineas, wrote to Brigham on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio, saying, "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the B. of M." (Martin Harris — Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52). More than sixty people testified concerning the Sacred Roll and Book of Shakerism, which taught "Christ has made His second appearance on earth, in a chosen female known by the name of Ann Lee." Martin Harris could not believe both that and the D. & C. 49:22, which says, "the Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman." In his old age, Harris rejoined the LDS Church and was brought to Utah where he died. But, there is no record of Harris ever renouncing his "greater" testimony for Shakerism. Therefore, just because there is no record of the witnesses of the B. of M. renouncing their testimony about the B. of M. that does not prove that they still believed it! If they truly believed it, why did they all apostatize from the LDS church? The testimony of eight other witnesses also appears in the front of all copies of the B. of M. They claim Joseph Smith showed them the gold plates which had "the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship." But, they were not archaeologists nor linguists, so they could not verify the age or the translation of the plates. Many feel that the witnesses did see some old-looking plates, but that Joseph Smith either made them or had them made. Smith and others later accused Oliver Cowdery of counterfeiting. If he could make counterfeit money, he could also make some phony gold plates. He had been a blacksmith when he was young, so he had ability in that area. The testimony of these eight men was changed after they signed it from "Joseph Smith, Jr. the Author and Proprietor" to "the translator." Such a change also invalidates their testimony. David Whitmer wrote, "All of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out [of the LDS Church]. Peter and Christian Whitmer were dead. Oliver Cowdery came out also" (Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 28). This was in June, 1838. The only ones who remained with Joseph out of the eight witnesses were his father and two brothers. Apostle James Talmage described the gold plates, saying, "The plates of the B. of M.... were... each about seven inches wide by eight inches long, and in thickness a little less than that of ordinary sheet tin. They were fastened together by three rings running through the plates near one edge; together they formed a book nearly six inches in thickness" (A. of F., p. 262). Gold weighs 1204.7256 pounds per cubic foot. 7"x 8"x 6"=336 cubic inches or .19444 cubic feet (336 divided by 12 cubed, or 1728). Multiply that by the cubic feet in the gold plates (.19444), and it shows that they weighed about 234.25 pounds! Yet, the testimony of the eight witnesses claims, "We have seen and hefted" the gold plates. And Joseph Smith's mother claimed that he put the plates under one arm and carried them three miles, fighting off the attacks of three robbers at the same time! (Joseph Smith's History By His Mother, 1853 edition, pp. 104-105).

[_ByGrace]

So far, you have a cut-and-paste from another site.

Perhaps you may want to demonstrate WHERE and WHAT the lies are, then folks may be able to respond better.

[_Tobin]

So far, you have a cut-and-paste from another site.

Perhaps you may want to demonstrate WHERE and WHAT the lies are, then folks may be able to respond better.

Good luck with that. Getting anything out of Mittens other than a bad cut-and-paste job is a small miracle. Usually it is a poorly worded sentence that makes little sense. I've yet to see Mittens argue or even come up with something somewhat original and in his/her own words other than that.

[_Bazooka]

Let me see if I can help...

In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 71

Chapter 8

Evidences Of The Divine Authenticity Of The Book of Mormon

Not one of these witnesses ever denied his testimony, even though each was subjected to much persecution and ridicule.

Le Grand Richards lying again

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#witnesses

If the three witnesses were of "spotless reputation" prior to their involvement in Mormonism, how did they become so corrupt while involved with the "one true Church?"

Devout LDS claim that none of the three witnesses ever denied their testimony. But, the official Mormon publication Times and Seasons, Vol. II, p. 482, says that Oliver Cowdery did deny the B. of M., even though LDS claim Oliver returned to the LDS Church.

The records show that he and his family joined the Methodist Protestant Church in Tiffin, Ohio, in about 1841, where Oliver served as secretary.
When he died in 1850, he was buried by a Methodist minister, John Sexsmith, in Richmond, Missouri.

David Whitmer belonged to at least three of the Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.

Martin Harris had been a member of at least five religious groups prior to becoming a Mormon, and he joined several others after he left Mormonism.

Brigham Young's brother, Phineas, wrote to Brigham on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio, saying, "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the B. of M." (Martin Harris — Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52).

More than sixty people testified concerning the Sacred Roll and Book of Shakerism, which taught "Christ has made His second appearance on earth, in a chosen female known by the name of Ann Lee." Martin Harris could not believe both that and the D. & C. 49:22, which says, "the Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman."

In his old age, Harris rejoined the LDS Church and was brought to Utah where he died. But, there is no record of Harris ever renouncing his "greater" testimony for Shakerism.

Therefore, just because there is no record of the witnesses of the B. of M. renouncing their testimony about the B. of M. that does not prove that they still believed it! If they truly believed it, why did they all apostatize from the LDS church?

[_Bhodi]

Let me see if I can help...

In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 71

Chapter 8

Evidences Of The Divine Authenticity Of The Book of Mormon

Not one of these witnesses ever denied his testimony, even though each was subjected to much persecution and ridicule.

Le Grand Richards lying again

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#witnesses

If the three witnesses were of "spotless reputation" prior to their involvement in Mormonism, how did they become so corrupt while involved with the "one true Church?"

Devout LDS claim that none of the three witnesses ever denied their testimony. But, the official Mormon publication Times and Seasons, Vol. II, p. 482, says that Oliver Cowdery did deny the B. of M., even though LDS claim Oliver returned to the LDS Church.

The records show that he and his family joined the Methodist Protestant Church in Tiffin, Ohio, in about 1841, where Oliver served as secretary.
When he died in 1850, he was buried by a Methodist minister, John Sexsmith, in Richmond, Missouri.

David Whitmer belonged to at least three of the Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.

Martin Harris had been a member of at least five religious groups prior to becoming a Mormon, and he joined several others after he left Mormonism.

Brigham Young's brother, Phineas, wrote to Brigham on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio, saying, "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the B. of M." (Martin Harris — Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52).

More than sixty people testified concerning the Sacred Roll and Book of Shakerism, which taught "Christ has made His second appearance on earth, in a chosen female known by the name of Ann Lee." Martin Harris could not believe both that and the D. & C. 49:22, which says, "the Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman."

In his old age, Harris rejoined the LDS Church and was brought to Utah where he died. But, there is no record of Harris ever renouncing his "greater" testimony for Shakerism.

Therefore, just because there is no record of the witnesses of the B. of M. renouncing their testimony about the B. of M. that does not prove that they still believed it! If they truly believed it, why did they all apostatize from the LDS church?

This is interesting. It is known that Martin Harris rejoined the LDS Church, and died in Utah. There is also a second hand source about Harris' beliefs. Yet the fact that following this second hand statement Harris took action that would seemingly invalidate the statement is minimized, and the second hand statement is elevated above the first hand actions, since the second hand statement supports the presupposed beliefs.

Is there any first hand evidence from the actual individuals of repudiation of the Book of Mormon?

[_ByGrace]

Then correct me if I am wrong, but I recall that the 3 witnesses all agreed that they saw the plates, but later recanted, and then recanted their recantations, and that is the issue with them, not their belief in the Book of Mormon.

Since it is impossible for anyone to verify the stuff in the Book of Mormon due to the way that Joseph Smith "translated" it, how can anyone verify it? And how can anyone verify anything that happened 600 BC if there is no written record of that?

[_Tobin]

Then correct me if I am wrong, but I recall that the 3 witnesses all agreed that they saw the plates, but later recanted, and then recanted their recantations, and that is the issue with them, not their belief in the Book of Mormon.

Since it is impossible for anyone to verify the stuff in the Book of Mormon due to the way that Joseph Smith "translated" it, how can anyone verify it? And how can anyone verify anything that happened 600 BC if there is no written record of that?

1) The three witnesses never recanted. In fact, none of the 12 witnesses ever recanted.
2) Of course there is a way to verify it is true. God wouldn't have produced something like this and just expect us to believe it for no good reason. The Book of Mormon asks you to seek and speak with God and God will reveal the truth of it unto you. That is the only reason to believe in it in the first place.

[_Mittens]

Not true

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#witnesses

[_Bhodi]

Not true

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#witnesses

Use a specific quote which supports your point.

[_Tobin]

Not true

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#witnesses

Use a specific quote which supports your point.

Good luck getting that or anything clearly stated from Mittens.