Le Grand Richards lying again

[_Bhodi]

Use a specific quote which supports your point.

Good luck getting that or anything clearly stated from Mittens.

The problem here is that Mittens is only hurting herself. She is woefully uneducated on the subjects, and relying on cut and paste, and its defense by Albion, is really a symptom of the failure of much of Evangelical scholarship. Once someone sinks into the apologetic quagmire it is almost like their IQ drops by 40 points, and this applies to all sides.

[_Tobin]

The problem here is that Mittens is only hurting herself. She is woefully uneducated on the subjects, and relying on cut and paste, and its defense by Albion, is really a symptom of the failure of much of Evangelical scholarship. Once someone sinks into the apologetic quagmire it is almost like their IQ drops by 40 points, and this applies to all sides.

That has always been the problem when talking to Evangelicals about Mormonism. Their lack of depth and knowledge about Mormonism in relation to their own faith is usually inadequate. As a result, they typically borrow nuclear arguments from anti-mormon critics, who don't believe in God at all and that would dissuade anyone from believing in God or God's miracles. It amazes me how often when you point this out to them, they fail to understand that exactly their same arguments annihilates their own particular brand of faith in God. By that point, I'm eft bewildered by most Evanglicals and am convinced most of them are simply atheists that wear a cross.

[_Bhodi]

That has always been the problem when talking to Evangelicals about Mormonism. Their lack of depth and knowledge about Mormonism in relation to their own faith is usually inadequate. As a result, they typically borrow nuclear arguments from anti-mormon critics, who don't believe in God at all and that would dissuade anyone from believing in God or God's miracles. It amazes me how often when you point this out to them, they fail to understand that exactly their same arguments annihilates their own particular brand of faith in God. By that point, I'm eft bewildered by most Evanglicals and am convinced most of them are simply atheists that wear a cross.

I know of many Evangelicals who are competent. The problem is with orientation. When your objective is to disprove something, at all costs, you make odd bedfellows. When your focus is not on your faith, but opposing someone else's, there is an intellectual stagnation.

[_Albion]

Tobin, in its essence what depth of Mormonism is required for Biblical Christians to discuss it? It either meets the Biblical standard or it doesn't. When you can demonstrate effectively the so-called depth of Mormonism from that source, supposedly the one element common to both camps, then you might find more willingness to delve more into your theology. It is Mormonism that assaults what I might term conventional Christianity...and thus it is Mormonism that bears the onus for verifying its theology. Something in my view it fails to do. Mormonism from its inception branded the collective Christian church as an "abomination" and "corrupt" and it then cries foul when that collective church strikes back and repudiates the different gospel of Mormonism.

[_Bhodi]

Tobin, in its essence what depth of Mormonism is required for Biblical Christians to discuss it? It either meets the Biblical standard or it doesn't. When you can demonstrate effectively the so-called depth of Mormonism from that source, supposedly the one element common to both camps, then you might find more willingness to delve more into your theology. It is Mormonism that assaults what I might term conventional Christianity...and thus it is Mormonism that bears the onus for verifying its theology. Something in my view it fails to do. Mormonism from its inception branded the collective Christian church as an "abomination" and "corrupt" and it then cries foul when that collective church strikes back and repudiates the different gospel of Mormonism.

Evangelical Scholars have said that you should know quite a lot. Are you familiar with the actual scholarship of your own tradition?

[_Albion]

No doubt you are, Bhodi, and can surely enlighten us.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, in its essence what depth of Mormonism is required for Biblical Christians to discuss it? It either meets the Biblical standard or it doesn't. When you can demonstrate effectively the so-called depth of Mormonism from that source, supposedly the one element common to both camps, then you might find more willingness to delve more into your theology. It is Mormonism that assaults what I might term conventional Christianity...and thus it is Mormonism that bears the onus for verifying its theology. Something in my view it fails to do. Mormonism from its inception branded the collective Christian church as an "abomination" and "corrupt" and it then cries foul when that collective church strikes back and repudiates the different gospel of Mormonism.

I really see no reason to engage Evangelicals on such a basis. Most Evangelicals embrace polluted and distorted views of the Bible that have been crafted over centuries. They long ago abandoned any notion of a God that reveals the word to us and no new sciptural experience has been part of their traditions for 2,000 years. I believe the best way to engage Evangelicals is to state the truth to them and help them once again recognize God and seek him as they should. There is no point to engagement over often trite and peculiar beliefs that are supposedly Biblically based but in reality have nothing to do with God or his revealed gospel.

[_Albion]

"Trite and peculiar beliefs." My, my, Tobin, who knew that you did irony so well? Coming from someone steeped in the commonly held weirdness of Mormon theology that is rich indeed. Is that typical humor on Kolob?

On the one hand you complain that evangelical Christians do not know or discuss the so-called deep things of Mormonism and then you derisively dismiss their theology in a way that makes you guilty of the same charge. Do you even know what the words evangel or evangelical mean? Of course, if you mean "revealed" as formulated by Joseph Smith I would agree totally that Christians have nothing to do with his god or his "gospel". At last we can agree on that so perhaps there is progress after all.

There really is only one "scriptural experience" that matters to Christians and that is in knowing and experiencing the sufficiency of Christ by grace through faith but I suppose that is far too superficial for those locked into the deep things of Mormonism. While I am willing to admit that most Christians know little of Mormon theology (why should they since to most Mormonism doesn't even enter their consciousness let alone their everyday world) my experience is that most Mormons I have met and interacted with know little of their own theology and history either. Given that, they have very little understanding of Christian theology either. But then, too, I will readily admit that they have little need to know given their place in the regimented "trite and peculiar" world of the Mormon religious system.

[_Tobin]

"Trite and peculiar beliefs." My, my, Tobin, who knew that you did irony so well? Coming from someone steeped in the commonly held weirdness of Mormon theology that is rich indeed. Is that typical humor on Kolob?

On the one hand you complain that evangelical Christians do not know or discuss the so-called deep things of Mormonism and then you derisively dismiss their theology in a way that makes you guilty of the same charge. Do you even know what the words evangel or evangelical mean? Of course, if you mean "revealed" as formulated by Joseph Smith I would agree totally that Christians have nothing to do with his god or his "gospel". At last we can agree on that so perhaps there is progress after all.

There really is only one "scriptural experience" that matters to Christians and that is in knowing and experiencing the sufficiency of Christ by grace through faith but I suppose that is far too superficial for those locked into the deep things of Mormonism. While I am willing to admit that most Christians know little of Mormon theology (why should they since to most Mormonism doesn't even enter their consciousness let alone their everyday world) my experience is that most Mormons I have met and interacted with know little of their own theology and history either. Given that, they have very little understanding of Christian theology either. But then, too, I will readily admit that they have little need to know given their place in the regimented "trite and peculiar" world of the Mormon religious system.

Oh the irony of these pseudo-Christians that refer to themselves as Evangelicals is not lost on me. They are anything but that. And I do agree that many Evangelicals have nothing to do with the God Joseph Smith worshipped. It is the same God that Abraham sought, spoke with, and worshipped and all the great prophets did as well. Instead Evangelicals have substituted a book (a thing) in place of God and worship it instead. And since they no longer seek and speak with God, they instead pervert the teachings in the Bible to creat a fictional God to their liking and to fit their trite and peculiar beliefs. However, like all false idols, this God does not speak with them and they have never seen their God in the course of the 2,000 years in which they formed it.

[_Bhodi]

"Trite and peculiar beliefs." My, my, Tobin, who knew that you did irony so well? Coming from someone steeped in the commonly held weirdness of Mormon theology that is rich indeed. Is that typical humor on Kolob?

If you actually have a response that is valid, you would not resort to derision so quickly, FYI.

On the one hand you complain that evangelical Christians do not know or discuss the so-called deep things of Mormonism and then you derisively dismiss their theology in a way that makes you guilty of the same charge. Do you even know what the words evangel or evangelical mean? Of course, if you mean "revealed" as formulated by Joseph Smith I would agree totally that Christians have nothing to do with his god or his "gospel". At last we can agree on that so perhaps there is progress after all.

While I do not share Tobin's opinions, I am not that fond of Evangelical scholarship, truth told. There are a few Evangelical scholars I resepct, but in general I think the movement is slowly dying from intellectual stangation. What passes for scholarship in most Christian (Evangelical) bookstores I frequent

There really is only one "scriptural experience" that matters to Christians and that is in knowing and experiencing the sufficiency of Christ by grace through faith but I suppose that is far too superficial for those locked into the deep things of Mormonism.

No, it is just not necessarily historically correct. Christianity has had a varied past, but what passes for Evangelical Christianity today is not very recognizable when compared to much Christian history prior to Martin Luther. In many ways Martin Luther was as revolutionary as Joseph Smith, but without the claims to divine revelation. Joseph Smith's either brilliant chicanery or divine revelation allowed a break with the past where Martin Luther was stuck with his, unable to reconcile many issues. As it is, however, most Evangelicals exist in as tense a relationship with historical Christianity as they do with Mormons. Former Evangelical scholar, Francis Beckwith, the former President of the Evangelical Theological Society, eventually converted to Roman Catholocism.

While I am willing to admit that most Christians know little of Mormon theology (why should they since to most Mormonism doesn't even enter their consciousness let alone their everyday world) my experience is that most Mormons I have met and interacted with know little of their own theology and history either. Given that, they have very little understanding of Christian theology either. But then, too, I will readily admit that they have little need to know given their place in the regimented "trite and peculiar" world of the Mormon religious system.

Your scholars would disagree.