Bible verse by verse

[Guest]

Most problems we have are of our own making, Mormon's not withstanding. The Apostles and myself are sealed through Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 ►


New International Version (©2011)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Really? I don't know what is funnier (or sadder)? Having the delusion that one is comparable and equivalent to the apostles or the delusion that one is 'sealed' and presumably saved by Jesus Christ (as if LittleNipper could command Jesus Christ around like a toy doll). I think when you die and meet your Maker LittleNipper, you are in for a world of disappointment when you find out that what you believe does not even remotely correspond to the reality of the situation.

I don't get your logic (or Mormon logic). The thought that the Apostles were not just average Jews (tax collector, fishermen, tent maker, freedom fighter) and must be something special for God to make exceptions to "latter" rules. Your reality isn't biblical as we will see, the Good Lord willing. So, you do actually realize that there is an issue and you need to attack my character to make the Apostles out to be something deserving of lofty consideration contrary to the Mormon ideal. And the silly thing is that Mormons actually are, in fact, the very ones that believe they can command Jesus around as a rag doll by their performance of RITUALISM, namely: Do this in this way and be married forever. Be baptized in this way for a departed relative and God will make an exception. Have multiple wives and God will turn one into a prophet (a changed exception I know)... We will see if the Bible supports any of these notions or if such are just latter attempts at manipulating God.

[_Tobin]

I don't get your logic (or Mormon logic). The thought that the Apostles were not just average Jews (tax collector, fishermen, tent maker) and must be something special for God to make exceptions to "latter rules." Your reality isn't biblical as we will see, the Good Lord willing.

So you just figure you are an apostle of Jesus Christ the same as those folks? You have a very interesting view of yourself. I have a minor, nit-picking question though. Have you actually seen Jesus Christ like mmmmm - EVER?!?

[Guest]

I don't get your logic (or Mormon logic). The thought that the Apostles were not just average Jews (tax collector, fishermen, tent maker) and must be something special for God to make exceptions to "latter rules." Your reality isn't biblical as we will see, the Good Lord willing.

So you just figure you are an apostle of Jesus Christ the same as those folks? You have a very interesting view of yourself. I have a minor, nit-picking question though. Have you actually seen Jesus Christ like mmmmm - EVER?!?

I consider myself a disciple of Christ, don't you? But the reality is that what Jesus taught His select group, He then wanted them to teach others --- Go into the world and preach the Gospel... No where in the Bible does Jesus say, "I want you to do this, but tell everyone else to do that... because you're special."

[_LittleNipper]

Numbers 7:1-89 On the day Moses set up the Tabernacle, he anointed it and set apart all its furnishings and the altar with its utensils ---setting them apart as holy.Then the leaders of Israel—the tribal leaders who had registered the troops—came and brought their offerings. They brought six large wagons and twelve oxen. There was a wagon for every two leaders and an ox for each leader. They presented these to the Lord in front of the Tabernacle.

The Lord said to Moses, to receive the gifts, and use the oxen and wagons for transporting the Tabernacle and distribute them among the Levites according to the work they have to do. So Moses took the wagons and oxen and presented them to the Levites. He gave two wagons and four oxen to the Gershonite division for their work, and he gave four wagons and eight oxen to the Merarite division for their work. All their work was done under the leadership of Ithamar son of Aaron the priest. But he gave none of the wagons or oxen to the Kohathite division, since they were required to carry the sacred objects of the Tabernacle on their shoulders.

The leaders also presented dedication gifts for the altar at the time it was anointed. They each placed their gifts before the altar.The Lord said to Moses, to Let one leader bring his gift each day for the dedication of the altar.

On the first day Nahshon son of Amminadab, leader of the tribe of Judah, presented his offering consisting of a silver platter weighing 3 1⁄4 pounds and a silver basin weighing 1 3⁄4 pounds. These were both filled with grain offerings of choice flour moistened with olive oil. He also brought a gold container weighing four ounces, filled with incense. He brought a young bull, a ram, and a one-year-old male lamb for a burnt offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. For a peace offering he brought two bulls, five rams, five male goats, and five one-year-old male lambs.

On the second day Nethanel son of Zuar, leader of the tribe of Issachar, presented the same.

On the third day Eliab son of Helon, leader of the tribe of Zebulun, presented the same.

On the fourth day Elizur son of Shedeur, leader of the tribe of Reuben, presented the same.

On the fifth day Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai, leader of the tribe of Simeon, presented the same.

On the sixth day Eliasaph son of Deuel, leader of the tribe of Gad, presented the same.

On the seventh day Elishama son of Ammihud, leader of the tribe of Ephraim, presented the same.

On the eighth day Gamaliel son of Pedahzur, leader of the tribe of Manasseh, presented the same.

On the ninth day Abidan son of Gideoni, leader of the tribe of Benjamin, presented the same.

On the tenth day Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai, leader of the tribe of Dan, presented the same.

On the eleventh day Pagiel son of Ocran, leader of the tribe of Asher, presented the same.

On the twelfth day Ahira son of Enan, leader of the tribe of Naphtali, presented the same.

So this was the TOTAL dedication offering brought by the leaders of Israel at the time the altar was anointed: twelve silver platters, twelve silver basins, and twelve gold incense containers.The total weight of the silver was 60 pounds (as measured by the weight of the sanctuary shekel). The total weight of the gold was three pounds. Twelve young bulls, twelve rams, and twelve one-year-old male lambs were donated for the burnt offerings, along with their prescribed grain offerings. Twelve male goats were brought for the sin offerings. Twenty-four bulls, sixty rams, sixty male goats, and sixty one-year-old male lambs were donated for the peace offerings. Whenever Moses went into the Tabernacle to speak with the Lord, he heard God's voice speaking to him from between the two cherubim above the Ark’s cover—the place of atonement—that rests on the Ark of the Covenant.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And it cometh to pass on the day of Moses' finishing setting up the tabernacle, that he anointeth it, and sanctifieth it, and all its vessels, and the altar, and all its vessels, and he anointeth them, and sanctifieth them,

2 and the princes of Israel (heads of the house of their fathers, they [are] princes of the tribes, they who are standing over those numbered) bring near,

3 yea, they bring their offering before Jehovah, six waggons covered, and twelve oxen -- a waggon for two of the princes, and an ox for one -- and they bring them near before the tabernacle.

4 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,

5 `Receive from them, and they have been to do the service of the tent of meeting, and thou hast given them unto the Levites, each according to his service.'

6 And Moses taketh the waggons and the oxen, and giveth them unto the Levites.

7 The two of the waggons and the four of the oxen he hath given to the sons of Gershon, according to their service,

8 and the four of the waggons and the eight of the oxen he hath given to the sons of Merari, according to their service, by the hand of Ithamar son of Aaron the priest;

9 and to the sons of Kohath he hath not given, for the service of the sanctuary [is] on them: on the shoulder they bear.

10 And the princes bring near the dedication of the altar in the day of its being anointed; yea, the princes bring near their offering before the altar.

11 And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `One prince a day -- one prince a day -- do they bring near their offering for the dedication of the altar.'

12 And he who is bringing near on the first day his offering is Nahshon son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah.

13 And his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary; both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

14 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

15 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

16 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

17 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Nahshon son of Amminadab.

18 On the second day hath Nethaneel son of Zuar, prince of Issachar, brought near.

19 He hath brought near his offering, one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

20 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

21 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

22 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

23 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Nethaneel son of Zuar.

24 On the third day, the prince of the sons of Zebulun, Eliab son of Helon; --

25 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

26 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

27 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

28 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

29 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Eliab son of Helon.

30 On the fourth day, Elizur, son of Shedeur, prince of the sons of Reuben; --

31 his offering is one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

32 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

33 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

34 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

35 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Elizur son of Shedeur.

36 On the fifth day, the prince of the sons of Simeon, Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai; --

37 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

38 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

39 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

40 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

41 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai.

42 On the sixth day, the prince of the sons of Gad, Eliasaph son of Deuel; --

43 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

44 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

45 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

46 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

47 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Eliasaph son of Deuel.

48 On the seventh day, the prince of the sons of Ephraim, Elishama son of Ammihud; --

49 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

50 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

51 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

52 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

53 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Elishama son of Ammihud.

54 On the eighth day, the prince of the sons of Manasseh, Gamaliel son of Pedahzur; --

55 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

56 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

57 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

58 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

59 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Gamaliel son of Pedahzur.

60 On the ninth day, the prince of the sons of Benjamin, Abidan son of Gideoni; --

61 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

62 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

63 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

64 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering:

65 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Abidan son of Gideoni.

66 On the tenth day, the prince of the sons of Dan, Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai; --

67 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

68 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

69 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

70 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

71 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai.

72 On the eleventh day, the prince of the sons of Asher, Pagiel son of Ocran; --

73 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

74 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

75 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

76 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

77 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Pagiel son of Ocran.

78 On the twelfth day, the prince of the sons of Naphtali, Ahira son of Enan; --

79 his offering [is] one silver dish, its weight a hundred and thirty [shekels]; one silver bowl of seventy shekels, by the shekel of the sanctuary, both of them full of flour mixed with oil, for a present;

80 one golden spoon of ten [shekels], full of perfume;

81 one bullock, a son of the herd, one ram, one lamb, a son of a year, for a burnt-offering;

82 one kid of the goats for a sin-offering;

83 and for a sacrifice of the peace-offerings two oxen, five rams, five he-goats, five lambs, sons of a year; this [is] the offering of Ahira son of Enan.

84 This [is] the dedication of the altar, in the day of its being anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve silver dishes, twelve silver bowls, twelve golden spoons;

85 a hundred and thirty [shekels] each silver dish, and each bowl seventy; all the silver of the vessels [is] two thousand and four hundred [shekels], by the shekel of the sanctuary.

86 Golden spoons [are] twelve, full of perfume; ten [shekels] each spoon, by the shekel of the sanctuary; all the gold of the spoons [is] a hundred and twenty [shekels];

87 all the oxen for burnt-offering [are] twelve bullocks, rams twelve, lambs, sons of a year twelve, and their present; and kids of the goats twelve, for sin-offering;

88 and all the oxen for the sacrifice of the peace-offerings [are] twenty and four bullocks, rams sixty, he-goats sixty, lambs, sons of a year, sixty; this is the dedication of the altar, in the day of its being anointed.

89 And in the going in of Moses unto the tent of meeting to speak with Him -- he doth even hear the voice speaking unto him from off the mercy-seat which [is] upon the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubs; and He speaketh unto him.

[_Tobin]

I consider myself a disciple of Christ, don't you? But the reality is that what Jesus taught His select group, He then wanted them to teach others --- Go into the world and preach the Gospel... No where in the Bible does Jesus say, "I want you to do this, but tell everyone else to do that... because your special."

Acts 1:3 KJB

To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Since you claim to be an apostle, could you tell us exactly what Jesus showed the apostles and exactly what he said to them during these 40 days?

[_Albion]

Oxford English Dictionary: APOSTLE...each of the twelve chief disciples of Christ. DISCIPLE: A personal follower of Christ; a follower or pupil of a teacher, leader, or philosophy.

Not all disciples are apostles but all apostles are disciples.

[_Tobin]

Wiki is Tobin's scriptural response? I wouldn't normally post to a site but if Wiki is all he has then http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp130.htm
is as good a response as any.

You asked for scriptures and guess what?!? that wiki has links to Mormon scriptures. We are talking about Mormonism here and if you don't want to read up on it, don't whine to me.

[_LittleNipper]

Wiki is Tobin's scriptural response? I wouldn't normally post to a site but if Wiki is all he has then http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp130.htm
is as good a response as any.

You asked for scriptures and guess what?!? that wiki has links to Mormon scriptures. We are talking about Mormonism here and if you don't want to read up on it, don't whine to me.

The Old Testament is all the very early Christians had. And those converts were taught through the application of the understanding of that Testament. The book of Hebrews is a perfect example of a survey of the Old Testament. It makes for a wonderful sermon.

After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
Cross references:Acts 1:3 : Mt 28:17; Lk 24:34, 36; Jn 20:19, 26; 21:1, 14; 1Co 15:5-7Acts 1:3 : S Mt 3:2

The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed.

[_Tobin]

The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed.

No, you are like a mustard seed.

[_consiglieri]

Jesus is mentioned in Ben Hur, but what exactly does that prove?

That your entire thread is a pointless exercise.