Is there any degree of self-persuasion involved in faith?

[_nc47]

Hi Tyresias,
There are other ways to experience God aside from just a feeling, the way missionaries told you about. For me, my faith is grounded upon a stock of spiritual experiences in the LDS Church. I always knew this, but did not think about it until I read Kierkegaard. This applies to any faith, but Mormonism is particularly appealing because of its ability to transform people's lives.

[_subgenius]

...(SNIP)...Maio and Thomas use the example of introvert and extrovert but I think it works the same way with faith. Moroni's challenge of asking god "if this church is true" is setting up oneself for the desired answer. Either you get the answer that it's true, or you get no answer. But the possibility of getting a affirmative "no, it's not true" is completely impossible. This must be some kind of logical fallacy...

Thoughts?

Moroni's challenge is actually to ask if these things are not true.

Faith, being considered a verb by those who practice it is a precursor to the knowledge of God, and is likely not applicable to a mature believer.
Notice the difference between faith and belief.
Faith is as simple as setting your alarm clock hoping that tomorrow will come and that you will awaken in time to go to your appointment. Faith in some things may seem to vary in degrees but it is Faith none the less...betting on 2:1 or 20:1 odds is the same act of Faith.

Faith is what children have when their parents instruct them, belief and/or knowledge is when the tenets of that Faith are manifest. Children believe in God because of Faith, and then when God is made manifest to them, they believe...they know.

Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy? not likely, in my opinion.

Yet you do bring up an interesting notion about perception, but on this subject it seems to be a long row to hoe. I am curious about your premise...are you proposing that either motivation is valid? is real? or that neither is valid? neither is real?.....are both motivations merely delusions?

[_subgenius]

Well, I do have a desire to understand how some people believe in a religion that seems obviously fabricated to most others. (For the record, I'm not singling out Mormonism here. The same could be said about a belief in Christ's resurrection, etc.)

would it not be easier, and more accurate, to believe for yourself in order to gain understanding on this topic?

I laughed heartily at your comment, Themis. But I have to ask you, how are you so sure you know what is true? won't you be falling into the same trap of claiming certainty and authority in matters that are open to subjective interpretation?

Themis wears hypocrisy like a fine tailored suit, don't worry.

I can't say for sure whether or not anyone knows the truth. So, no I am not interested in finding that which might not actually exist. I am more interested in understanding HOW people come to "know" the truth. In other words, what makes us so certain that our perceptions and interpretations are correct?

interesting question...but on the obverse side, what makes some of us (in this case, you?) so uncertain about our perceptions and interpretations?
Or is there a desire to resolve why people may, or may not, be different?

I mean, regarding "truth", is there a faith involved in the idea that if there is an objective "HOW" then surely there must be an objective "WHAT"?

[_sleepyhead]

The mere fact of asking the question defines the outcome. One might as well ask the question, "Am I fat?" If you need to ask the question, you already know the answer. (Yes, it feels good when someone answers in the negative, but the joy is shortlived.) The question then gets repeated. In regards to faith, the question gets repeated over and over until you convince yourself of the answer you want to hear.

Hello,

I created a thread earlier about obtaining information from the unknown. here it is here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28242

[_Tobin]

I was a former Mormon and an atheist until I saw and experienced God myself. Barring that I would still be an atheist and not believe a word of Mormonism. Unless you have an experience like Joseph Smith (or others have had in the scriptures), there really is no good reason to believe they are anything but a fictional account (or worse). If you desire these kind of experiences, seek them. Otherwise as I said, there is no reason to believe they are true and I would recommend living a good life, being good to others, and holding to those things you know are correct.

Tobis: What kind of mental state where you in when you felt the spirit or when God reveal himself to you? Were you seeking a change in your life? Or were you perfectly happy in your atheistic state? How can we tell the difference between a willed faith that we create out of desire and the "real" thing?

I was rather content and in the midst of being what you would call a sinner (and rather enjoying myself). Now, I'm rather interested knowing there is such a thing as God and I really don't worry about the metaphysical stuff like death (other than I don't want to die in a horrible painful manner). So in answer to your question, no - I had no desire there be a God but the realization is very expansive and illuminating for me. And I was just as surprised as the person that was with me when God appeared, so I know I wasn't delusional either.

[_ludwigm]

I was a former Mormon and an atheist until I saw and experienced God myself.

Tobis: What kind of mental state where you in when you felt the spirit or when God reveal himself to you? Were you seeking a change in your life?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1342793

Providence Road in Charlotte, N.C., a busy local route where a mother toting her newborn infant, accompanied by the grandmother and a toddler, stopped traffic Saturday because they were all stark naked.

Let’s hope they were at least wearing sunscreen.

Because they weren’t wearing anything else.

Walking down a busy street in Charlotte, N.C., this weekend were a 20-something mother, clutching her newborn infant, and a 40-something grandmother. Also in tow was a toddler.None of them had a stitch on, which created a bit of a traffic jam on the main thoroughfare of Providence Road.

“Like freshly born naked,” said Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Capt. Rod Farley, describing the group’s appearance. “This was Adam and Eve stuff — not even a loincloth.”

When police arrived and questioned the birthday-suit entourage, the women said they’d been divinely inspired.

Apparently “the Lord told them to get naked and walk down the street,” Farley said.

The naked family was taken to a nearby hospital for physical and mental evaluations.

All hospitals of the world would not be enough to make mental evaluation for everybody who deserves it.

[_Tobin]

All hospitals of the world would not be enough to make mental evaluation for everybody who deserves it.

The Lord was rather sensible in my case. He asks us to put our clothes back on.

[_Themis]

That is because you haven't been paying attention to the scriptures (or you simply don't believe they apply to you).
John 17:3 KJB

I understand these other scriptures. Nothing in it says God has to show up. One has to wonder if your interpretation of Moroni's promise is so obvious why an entire religion does not read it the way you do. I suspect it may be related to your many assumptions you came up with after your one experience.

As I said, I don't think God is stupid. God was perfectly capable fo disclosing anything he wished at that time.

If God exists i would also think God would not be stupid, and would be capable of disclosing anything he/she/they wished. The problem I still see is you have admitted the entity you think you saw did not identify itself as God or anything else. It is a major assumption you start with that ignores all other possibilities. I think you make many more assumptions here without realizing it. Could it be a shred illusion. Maybe some kind of spirit not related to any Christians religious thought. Maybe it did not care or know what path you would take after the event. How many possibilities exist that we cannot think of. If it really had been God I think it would have been wise to at least say so, and probably give you some direction if God has any interest in such.

But given you don't believe in God and are at odds with those who claim to have seen him, I think you may wish to rethink your approach.

I have no problem if God wishes to visit, and would welcome it. Considering that you claim to be an atheist and not seeking God when you think he showed up, it is puzzling why you have so much opposition to others asking simple questions about your experience.

[_Themis]

You cannot force yourself to have faith or believe certain claims without having a great desire to believe them first. If you have a great desire to believe LDS claims then going to church, praying, reading scriptures and telling yourself it is true. This could help you to become a believer. Do you want to believe in it, or are you more interested in what is true?

Well, I do have a desire to understand how some people believe in a religion that seems obviously fabricated to most others. (For the record, I'm not singling out Mormonism here. The same could be said about a belief in Christ's resurrection, etc.)

I laughed heartily at your comment, Themis. But I have to ask you, how are you so sure you know what is true? won't you be falling into the same trap of claiming certainty and authority in matters that are open to subjective interpretation?

Where did I say I am sure I know what is true. Certainly I have expressed my opinion about LDS truth claims on this site, but your first comment suggests you are in the same boat as I.

I can't say for sure whether or not anyone knows the truth. So, no I am not interested in finding that which might not actually exist. I am more interested in understanding HOW people come to "know" the truth. In other words, what makes us so certain that our perceptions and interpretations are correct?

I tend to agnostic on many of these kind of issues. When realizing the LDS truth claims have little chance of being true, I had to wonder why others who also knew the same information maintained a belief in things that you have called obviously fabricated. Over time I think it really is based on what you desire most. If you want to believe something more then you want the truth you can ignore a lot of evidence as we see with young earthers. I think the beliefs people have from spiritual experiences also play a role, and it can provide very powerful feelings and desires to maintain or obtain beliefs in something. This is why I said it is probably the most important ingredient in getting one to believe something. As a missionary, trying to get the investigator to have a positive emotional experience that they will hopefully connect to the LDS religion is very important.

[_Tobin]

That is because you haven't been paying attention to the scriptures (or you simply don't believe they apply to you).
John 17:3 KJB

I understand these other scriptures. Nothing in it says God has to show up. One has to wonder if your interpretation of Moroni's promise is so obvious why an entire religion does not read it the way you do. I suspect it may be related to your many assumptions you came up with after your one experience.

This is precisely why I highly dislike discussing things with you and have you on ignore. It is as if you are mentally retarded or have a highly selective memory defect and can't remember what is said from post to post. Despite mentioning several times to you that Joseph Smith and all the others saints and prophets have also repeatedly made the claim about seeing and experiencing God - you act like the citation in John 17:3 is the only relevant thing IN THIS THREAD!?! The rest of your reponse is this same level of idiocy. I'm going back to ignoring you. I can't take you seriously at all.