Tobin wrote:This is precisely why I highly dislike discussing things with you and have you on ignore. It is as if you are mentally r******* or have a highly selective memory defect and can't remember what is said from post to post. Despite mentioning several times to you that Joseph Smith and all the others saints and prophets have also repeatedly made the claim about seeing and experiencing God - you act like the citation in John 17:3 is the only relevant thing IN THIS THREAD!?! The rest of your reponse is this same level of idiocy. I'm going back to ignoring you. I can't take you seriously at all.
You make me laugh tobin. I have no idea why you get so upset sometimes over harmless discussion. It's like you get upset if someone does not agree with you. Can you quote church leaders saying Moroni's promise is only fulfilled if God shows up. Your lack of understanding how others view this is fairly apparent, and how their interpretation is just a legitimate. All I have really done is just tell you what you should already know about how the LDS church today views Moroni's promise. I know Joseph claimed to see God, but I don't remember him saying this was a necessity with Moroni's promise. I might be nice to see more then just assertions. I also never got the impression your average member in Joseph's day claimed to see God.
bcuzbcuz wrote:The mere fact of asking the question defines the outcome. One might as well ask the question, "Am I fat?" If you need to ask the question, you already know the answer. (Yes, it feels good when someone answers in the negative, but the joy is shortlived.) The question then gets repeated. In regards to faith, the question gets repeated over and over until you convince yourself of the answer you want to hear.
Hello,
I created a thread earlier about obtaining information from the unknown. here it is here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28242
Thanks for your response, but I'm far removed from seeking answers from either Moroni or Cayce. For my high blood pressure I get answers from my doctor, everything else I just ask my wife.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
Tobin wrote:This is precisely why I highly dislike discussing things with you and have you on ignore. It is as if you are mentally r******* or have a highly selective memory defect and can't remember what is said from post to post. Despite mentioning several times to you that Joseph Smith and all the others saints and prophets have also repeatedly made the claim about seeing and experiencing God - you act like the citation in John 17:3 is the only relevant thing IN THIS THREAD!?! The rest of your reponse is this same level of idiocy. I'm going back to ignoring you. I can't take you seriously at all.
You make me laugh tobin. I have no idea why you get so upset sometimes over harmless discussion. It's like you get upset if someone does not agree with you. Can you quote church leaders saying Moroni's promise is only fulfilled if God shows up. Your lack of understanding how others view this is fairly apparent, and how their interpretation is just a legitimate. All I have really done is just tell you what you should already know about how the LDS church today views Moroni's promise. I know Joseph claimed to see God, but I don't remember him saying this was a necessity with Moroni's promise. I might be nice to see more then just assertions. I also never got the impression your average member in Joseph's day claimed to see God.
As far as I understand Church History there are only two recorded instances of where God himself has appeared to a human: 1. In the grove of tree's - appeared to Joseph Smith 2. In a locked New York apartment - appeared to Tobin and his girlfriend
Neither appearance was in response to an appeal about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Only one appearance was in response to God being asked a question (unless, unbeknown to him, Tobin's girlfriend had indeed asked God a question)
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Tyresias wrote: Is there any kind of mental processes that help you guys put doubt aside?
At the Mormon Discussions and Dialogue board, several active mental processes help in formulating apologetic responses, mainly denial, suppression and confabulation. However, leaving doubt intact ultimately leads to a more reasonable and satisfying version of faith.
Bazooka wrote: As far as I understand Church History there are only two recorded instances of where God himself has appeared to a human: 1. In the grove of tree's - appeared to Joseph Smith 2. In a locked New York apartment - appeared to Tobin and his girlfriend
Neither appearance was in response to an appeal about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Only one appearance was in response to God being asked a question (unless, unbeknown to him, Tobin's girlfriend had indeed asked God a question)
They both claim God showed up, but only Joseph claims an entity identifies itself as God. Tobin admits what he thought was an entity did not say who it was or tell him what to believe. I also have to wonder why he makes the other leap that since he concludes he saw God and Joseph claims to have seen God that Joseph must therefore have seen God. This logic seems to assume everyone making the claim cannot be making it up. Of course I am not sure he is consistent with this with other self proclaimed prophets.
Tyresias wrote:...(SNIP)... Moroni's challenge is actually to ask if these things are not true.
In the case, my point is even stronger. What are the chances of a non-existent deity answering "no, the Book of Mormon is not true"? 100%. So really, Moroni's challenge couldn't possibly loose. Well done Joseph Smith. This is called unfalsifiability and it is the foundation of faith.
subgenius wrote: Faith is what children have when their parents instruct them, belief and/or knowledge is when the tenets of that Faith are manifest. Children believe in God because of Faith, and then when God is made manifest to them, they believe...they know.
I'm not sure if I get this part. I thought the individual had to take a leap of faith. How do you get it through instruction? If that is the case then I think going to Church for two and half years, getting baptized, involvment in the community and all of these things I did should have given me this belief/knowledge but it didn't. I think my problem was that the whole time I was participating in this religion I had lots of doubt. But that's not something I could/can just turn off. Right? Or can I? Any suggestions?
subgenius wrote:I am curious about your premise...are you proposing that either motivation is valid? is real? or that neither is valid? neither is real?.....are both motivations merely delusions?
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The premise about self-persuasion?
Tyresias wrote:In the case, my point is even stronger. What are the chances of a non-existent deity answering "no, the Book of Mormon is not true"? 100%. So really, Moroni's challenge couldn't possibly loose. Well done Joseph Smith. This is called unfalsifiability and it is the foundation of faith.
your conclusion is nonsense.....you want to discuss "faith" but refuse to acknowledge that faith does not always adhere to the same restrictions of a science experiment. Without understanding that simple concept you will be unable to discuss the matter with any sort of intelligence or insight. Your paradigm is misapplied.
Tyresias wrote:
subgenius wrote: Faith is what children have when their parents instruct them, belief and/or knowledge is when the tenets of that Faith are manifest. Children believe in God because of Faith, and then when God is made manifest to them, they believe...they know.
I'm not sure if I get this part. I thought the individual had to take a leap of faith. How do you get it through instruction? If that is the case then I think going to Church for two and half years, getting baptized, involvment in the community and all of these things I did should have given me this belief/knowledge but it didn't. I think my problem was that the whole time I was participating in this religion I had lots of doubt. But that's not something I could/can just turn off. Right? Or can I? Any suggestions?
Leap of faith? I do not recall any scripture that requires such...most faith requires education and discernment. nevertheless consider, in scriptural context, the children of Adam. Adam walked and talked with God in Eden, and obviously instructed his children accordingly. His children did not "know" of God except as through their father...so they believed in God from faith....until God manifest unto them and then they "knew".
Tyresias wrote:
subgenius wrote:I am curious about your premise...are you proposing that either motivation is valid? is real? or that neither is valid? neither is real?.....are both motivations merely delusions?
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The premise about self-persuasion?
yes
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Tyresias wrote: I'm not sure what you're referring to here. The premise about self-persuasion?
Don't worry your not the first ... But I would like to allude to the first awnser you got on this thread.
What Tobin said was pretty rock solid (shocker I know) then Themis proceeded to discredit him by dragging all this past tense stuff into the conversation. And everybody else jumped on the band wagon. I have been a vehement anti-Tobinator many a time here. And when I first read his comment I had a reaction to that. But then I reasoned through it and said "hmm ... I don't have any quarrels with that ... and that is pretty f*****g good ... cudos Tobin ;)
So here we are ... with your question ... and it is a valid one !
I just wanted to clear up all the anti Tobin stuff :/
It's not being anti-tobin to explain some of his idiosyncrasies and inconsistencies in his usual mantras. I like the guy even though we don't agree on some things. His advice was something he himself does not follow. If he did he would not believe anything about Joseph as he tells everyone else not to unless God tells you otherwise. Considering his experience didn't tell him to believe anything of these things, is it logical to believe some peoples claims of the divine while rejecting all the others.