Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _Droopy »

Bazooka wrote:But Droopy,

If you were in the UK and voted for one of the major parties, you would be voting FOR the ratification of same sex marriage (as they all wish to put policies in place to let it go ahead).


That's just pointing out that when I voted for George Bush, I knew that I was probably going to get bigger, more expansive, intrusive government. I also voted for Romney knowing that he was a marginal conservative, at best, with no real agenda of substantial government reform with the idea of moving the nation toward limited, constitutional government, save perhaps in the sense of tweaking things around the periphery. both these, however, were much preferable to the neo-Marxism/liberal fascism of the Democratic Party.

This would mean you have supported a group whose beliefs/teachings are in opposition to those of the Church which invalidates your temple recommend.


A political party, at least in free societies, is a cornucopia of policy prescriptions and stated positions on numerous issues, and always involve trade-offs, not clear solutions or perfect amalgamations of pure doctrines. Indeed, nothing like that exists in the mortal, human world.

At some point (coming closer by the day), I probably will be forced to bow out of voting altogether, as a matter of principle, but that day is not yet.

Also, you're butting up against a core principle of "middle way," big tent Mormonism here, by making a single issue within a broader mix of issues in a democratic nation a sign of apostasy. A number here, and even at the FAIR board, will tell you that one may be a socialist, communist, or fascist, and still be a good Mormon. One's core political philosophy and worldview don't matter. I assume this also applies to Nazism, but I've never been able to get a straight answer from any of the liberals who hold this big tent view of the Church to engage me on that (though it would certainly, it appears, have to apply to revolutionary Marxism-Leninism).

Really, you should leave this kind of sophistry to Darth, as he's much more entertaining in his presentation.

The answer, of course, is that in voting for a party who's mix of issues and policies is preferable to those of another party, and which contains a preponderance of policy positions generally compatible with way in which the Church indicates I should lean, I'm actually not voting for any particular policy, but for the mix, while reserving criticism (as I have for the Republicans) on specific issues.

Single issue voters (such as certain pro-lifers) who refuse to participate in the political life of the nation unless a pure position is represented by the broader coalition that makes up a political party, have left the field of battle and given ground on a plethora of issues, not just the one on which they have focused.

I'm not like that, although, to be clear, at some point, as the Republicans continue to follow the Democrats like seagulls behind a cruise ship, I will be forced to bow out, sit back, and watch events unfold, hopefully from a front row seat in Zion.

I don't want to miss any of the action, I just don't want to be any part of it.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Bazooka
_Emeritus
Posts: 10719
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _Bazooka »

Droopy wrote:That's just pointing out that when I voted for George Bush, I knew that I was probably going to get bigger, more expansive, intrusive government. I also voted for Romney knowing that he was a marginal conservative, at best, with no real agenda of substantial government reform with the idea of moving the nation toward limited, constitutional government, save perhaps in the sense of tweaking things around the periphery. both these, however, were much preferable to the neo-Marxism/liberal fascism of the Democratic Party.

But bigger, more expansive, intrusive government isn't against a core Church belief. Same sex marriage is.

This would mean you have supported a group whose beliefs/teachings are in opposition to those of the Church which invalidates your temple recommend.


Droopy wrote:A political party, at least in free societies, is a cornucopia of policy prescriptions and stated positions on numerous issues, and always involve trade-offs, not clear solutions or perfect amalgamations of pure doctrines. Indeed, nothing like that exists in the mortal, human world.

At some point (coming closer by the day), I probably will be forced to bow out of voting altogether, as a matter of principle, but that day is not yet.

Also, you're butting up against a core principle of "middle way," big tent Mormonism here, by making a single issue within a broader mix of issues in a democratic nation a sign of apostasy. A number here, and even at the FAIR board, will tell you that one may be a socialist, communist, or fascist, and still be a good Mormon. One's core political philosophy and worldview don't matter. I assume this also applies to Nazism, but I've never been able to get a straight answer from any of the liberals who hold this big tent view of the Church to engage me on that (though it would certainly, it appears, have to apply to revolutionary Marxism-Leninism).

Really, you should leave this kind of sophistry to Darth, as he's much more entertaining in his presentation.

The answer, of course, is that in voting for a party who's mix of issues and policies is preferable to those of another party, and which contains a preponderance of policy positions generally compatible with way in which the Church indicates I should lean, I'm actually not voting for any particular policy, but for the mix, while reserving criticism (as I have for the Republicans) on specific issues.

Single issue voters (such as certain pro-lifers) who refuse to participate in the political life of the nation unless a pure position is represented by the broader coalition that makes up a political party, have left the field of battle and given ground on a plethora of issues, not just the one on which they have focused.

I'm not like that, although, to be clear, at some point, as the Republicans continue to follow the Democrats like seagulls behind a cruise ship, I will be forced to bow out, sit back, and watch events unfold, hopefully from a front row seat in Zion.

I don't want to miss any of the action, I just don't want to be any part of it.

Lovely, but that doesn't address the point. The point isn't about you affiliating with a political party, it's about your affiliation with a group who's teachings/beliefs are in direct opposition the the Church. And that's a disciplinary/removal of temple recommend matter.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _subgenius »

Bazooka wrote:Lovely, but that doesn't address the point. The point isn't about you affiliating with a political party, it's about your affiliation with a group who's teachings/beliefs are in direct opposition the the Church. And that's a disciplinary/removal of temple recommend matter.

agreed...not to mention affiliating with delusional degenerates.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _subgenius »

Droopy wrote:..(snip)...
A political party, at least in free societies, is a cornucopia of policy prescriptions and stated positions on numerous issues, and always involve trade-offs, not clear solutions or perfect amalgamations of pure doctrines. Indeed, nothing like that exists in the mortal, human world.

At some point (coming closer by the day), I probably will be forced to bow out of voting altogether, as a matter of principle, but that day is not yet.

Also, you're butting up against a core principle of "middle way," big tent Mormonism here, by making a single issue within a broader mix of issues in a democratic nation a sign of apostasy. A number here, and even at the FAIR board, will tell you that one may be a socialist, communist, or fascist, and still be a good Mormon. One's core political philosophy and worldview don't matter. I assume this also applies to Nazism, but I've never been able to get a straight answer from any of the liberals who hold this big tent view of the Church to engage me on that (though it would certainly, it appears, have to apply to revolutionary Marxism-Leninism).

Really, you should leave this kind of sophistry to Darth, as he's much more entertaining in his presentation.

The answer, of course, is that in voting for a party who's mix of issues and policies is preferable to those of another party, and which contains a preponderance of policy positions generally compatible with way in which the Church indicates I should lean, I'm actually not voting for any particular policy, but for the mix, while reserving criticism (as I have for the Republicans) on specific issues.

Single issue voters (such as certain pro-lifers) who refuse to participate in the political life of the nation unless a pure position is represented by the broader coalition that makes up a political party, have left the field of battle and given ground on a plethora of issues, not just the one on which they have focused.

I'm not like that, although, to be clear, at some point, as the Republicans continue to follow the Democrats like seagulls behind a cruise ship, I will be forced to bow out, sit back, and watch events unfold, hopefully from a front row seat in Zion.

I don't want to miss any of the action, I just don't want to be any part of it.

The issue of marriage is not a matter of "taste" within either party nor is it a blurry political issue....whereas an individual candidate may spin his own particular platform for fundraising purposes, affiliation with the party is affiliation with the platform....you dance with who brought ya!

The GOP Platform: "We believe that marriage, the union of one man and one woman must be upheld as the national standard, a goal to stand for, encourage, and promote through laws governing marriage"

The Democratic Platform: "We support marriage equality and support the movement to secure equal treatment under law for same-sex couples."

http://www.democrats.org/news/blog/only ... s_equality
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Bazooka
_Emeritus
Posts: 10719
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _Bazooka »

subgenius wrote:
Bazooka wrote:Lovely, but that doesn't address the point. The point isn't about you affiliating with a political party, it's about your affiliation with a group who's teachings/beliefs are in direct opposition the the Church. And that's a disciplinary/removal of temple recommend matter.

agreed...not to mention affiliating with delusional degenerates.


Now, what if you were a Church member and politician, some of whose stated policies are in opposition to Church beliefs on same sex marriage?
Could you work for, promote, be directly involved in an active way, with a political party whose stated policies on same sex marriage were in opposition to Church beliefs, yet still be worthy of holding a Temple Recommend?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _subgenius »

Bazooka wrote:Now, what if you were a Church member and politician, some of whose stated policies are in opposition to Church beliefs on same sex marriage?
Could you work for, promote, be directly involved in an active way, with a political party whose stated policies on same sex marriage were in opposition to Church beliefs, yet still be worthy of holding a Temple Recommend?

Yes, you could.
Though the recommend inquires about such affiliations it is not a rubber stamp process...as you may well know (or not) the recommend interview, necessarily performed twice per recommend, is reliant on a witness from the Lord...any response to any question may be prompted for further discussion or not.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Bazooka
_Emeritus
Posts: 10719
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:36 am

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _Bazooka »

subgenius wrote:
Bazooka wrote:Now, what if you were a Church member and politician, some of whose stated policies are in opposition to Church beliefs on same sex marriage?
Could you work for, promote, be directly involved in an active way, with a political party whose stated policies on same sex marriage were in opposition to Church beliefs, yet still be worthy of holding a Temple Recommend?

Yes, you could.
Though the recommend inquires about such affiliations it is not a rubber stamp process...as you may well know (or not) the recommend interview, necessarily performed twice per recommend, is reliant on a witness from the Lord...any response to any question may be prompted for further discussion or not.


Let's just say I'm familiar with the process...

When asked the question about affiliation, I answer "I'm a Liberal Democrat MP and one of our policies is to support same sex marriage. I don't personally agree with it. But yes I do affiliate with a group whose beliefs are contrary to those of the Church." Am I in or out?

And where I will go next with this is:
If a Liberal Democrat MP is okay because he personally doesn't agree with that policy; is someone that votes for the Liberal Democrats okay; is someone that donates funds to the Liberal Democrat Party okay?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_LittleNipper
_Emeritus
Posts: 4518
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _LittleNipper »

Bazooka wrote:When asked the question about affiliation, I answer "I'm a Liberal Democrat MP and one of our policies is to support same sex marriage. I don't personally agree with it. But yes I do affiliate with a group whose beliefs are contrary to those of the Church." Am I in or out?

And where I will go next with this is:
If a Liberal Democrat MP is okay because he personally doesn't agree with that policy; is someone that votes for the Liberal Democrats okay; is someone that donates funds to the Liberal Democrat Party okay?

One will reap what is sown. If one sows to the wind, one will reap a tornado.
_ludwigm
_Emeritus
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am

Re: Same Sex Marriage - UK takes a step forward...

Post by _ludwigm »

Another step forward:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22605011
The House of Commons has voted to allow gay marriage in England and Wales, despite 161 MPs opposing the government's plans.

Several Tory MPs spoke against the proposals, which have caused tensions in the party, but the Labour and Lib Democrat leaderships backed them.

The Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill now goes before the House of Lords.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Post Reply