futuremissionary wrote:Or even just go back to the original meaning of tithing. Tithing didn't used to be 10% and it used to only be on increase, meaning what's left over at the end of the year. I'm sure the Church had a good reason to bump it to 10%, but is the Church in a financial state where it still needs that?
do you have a reference that illustrates how the church has "changed" the meaning of tithe? The scriptures are not clear in their definition of "increase", but it seems obvious...and even though modern understanding is associated with "income", the concept of increase still applies...i mean do you have a reference that states "10% of gross income, before taxes, deductions, fees, mortgage payments, groceries, etc.."? Exactly what, when asked, are you considering is an honest response about paying tithe?
Yes. When 'tithing' became a measure of worthiness for temple attendance.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
futuremissionary wrote:Or even just go back to the original meaning of tithing. Tithing didn't used to be 10% and it used to only be on increase, meaning what's left over at the end of the year. I'm sure the Church had a good reason to bump it to 10%, but is the Church in a financial state where it still needs that?
do you have a reference that illustrates how the church has "changed" the meaning of tithe? The scriptures are not clear in their definition of "increase", but it seems obvious...and even though modern understanding is associated with "income", the concept of increase still applies...i mean do you have a reference that states "10% of gross income, before taxes, deductions, fees, mortgage payments, groceries, etc.."? Exactly what, when asked, are you considering is an honest response about paying tithe?
Mktavish wrote:Well the method of peer pressure and ostersization is a double edge sword for them, but it does work to some degree. Sort of like a filter in that it weeds out the members most likely to cause problems within the fold and lead others to questioning the power base.
The biggest step to showing it might be a church interested in their well being and not their pay check. Could be to revamp the policies on tithing. Simply try a period of say 1 year of no tithing collected. It would seem with the churches holdings , they could weather that. Even if they have to make church jobs take a pay cut. that's just my oppinion for what could retain membership , and maybe even bring back a lot of the inactives.
Or even just go back to the original meaning of tithing. Tithing didn't used to be 10% and it used to only be on increase, meaning what's left over at the end of the year. I'm sure the Church had a good reason to bump it to 10%, but is the Church in a financial state where it still needs that?
The Bible states that the tithe is 10% by definition: A tithe is one-tenth part of one's income. Tithing, or giving a tithe, goes back to ancient times, even before Moses.
In the Bible, Mosaic law required that the Israelites give one-tenth of the produce of their land and livestock, the tithe, to support the Levitical priesthood (Leviticus 27:30-33). Today, many Christians donate a tithe, or ten percent of their income, to support their church, the pastor's needs, and missionary work.
futuremissionary wrote:For sure. I don't expect Nike to purchase a 2 page spread in a sports magazine talking about their sweatshops (dated example, I know). On the other hand, I do expect them to acknowledge it, explain what went wrong, and show that they're doing something to fix it. With the church, I'm not asking for a pamphlet sent to every members' door, but I do think members deserve a place to find answers as well as the ability to have open and honest. Right now you get labeled anti for even talking about Egyptology or polyandry.
Unfortunately the church has branded itself as God's one true church holding God's authority which is passed down from Joseph Smith. The church's main truth claims live and die with Joseph smith. The problem is that these issues show clearly Joseph Smith making it up.
futuremissionary wrote:For sure. I don't expect Nike to purchase a 2 page spread in a sports magazine talking about their sweatshops (dated example, I know). On the other hand, I do expect them to acknowledge it, explain what went wrong, and show that they're doing something to fix it. With the church, I'm not asking for a pamphlet sent to every members' door, but I do think members deserve a place to find answers as well as the ability to have open and honest. Right now you get labeled anti for even talking about Egyptology or polyandry.
Setting aside the question of whether Nike's sweat shops are justified, what is the Church's analog for Nike fixing its historical 'problems'? Should the Church stop killing passersby at Mountain Meadows? Start giving the priesthood to blacks?
"It is so hard to believe because it is so hard to obey." - Soren Kierkegaard
futuremissionary wrote:For sure. I don't expect Nike to purchase a 2 page spread in a sports magazine talking about their sweatshops (dated example, I know). On the other hand, I do expect them to acknowledge it, explain what went wrong, and show that they're doing something to fix it. With the church, I'm not asking for a pamphlet sent to every members' door, but I do think members deserve a place to find answers as well as the ability to have open and honest. Right now you get labeled anti for even talking about Egyptology or polyandry.
Setting aside the question of whether Nike's sweat shops are justified, what is the Church's analog for Nike fixing its historical 'problems'? Should the Church stop killing passersby at Mountain Meadows? Start giving the priesthood to blacks?
I think that simply discussing it openly would be good enough for me.
Nelson Chung wrote: Setting aside the question of whether Nike's sweat shops are justified, what is the Church's analog for Nike fixing its historical 'problems'? Should the Church stop killing passersby at Mountain Meadows? Start giving the priesthood to blacks?
I think that simply discussing it openly would be good enough for me.
Kinda like how Nike discusses its wrongs perpetrated 100 years ago?
"It is so hard to believe because it is so hard to obey." - Soren Kierkegaard
futuremissionary wrote:For sure. I don't expect Nike to purchase a 2 page spread in a sports magazine talking about their sweatshops (dated example, I know). On the other hand, I do expect them to acknowledge it, explain what went wrong, and show that they're doing something to fix it. With the church, I'm not asking for a pamphlet sent to every members' door, but I do think members deserve a place to find answers as well as the ability to have open and honest. Right now you get labeled anti for even talking about Egyptology or polyandry.
....(snip)...
I think that simply discussing it openly would be good enough for me.
Why is that? I mean, what difference does it make? If Nike or the Church are simply trying to console some fanciful condition by having a discussion about this or that, what is the purpose? Your posts seem to describe these "answers" as if your posts are somehow not predisposed already...i sincerely doubt that it is answers you are seeking....for your posts are not asking questions that have not been answered already...what your posts seemingly are doing is expressing a dislike for the answers that have been given and therefore are simply begging to receive different answers....and that is altogether a different topic for discussion than your posts are pretending here.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent