For Maklelan

[_nc47]

I assume he decided to accept the PhD candidacy at Oxford so he doesn't have time to reply to internet message boards anymore?

[_subgenius]

this subject has been discussed before...Doctrine within the LDS church is rather simple and well defined...only apostate critics argue the "opinion" point.
First
"For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith." - D&C 28:13

Doctrine has only been accepted about 6 times since 1830, and every time by the same process -
It requires the approval of the First Presidency
then a concurrence of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles
and then it must be accepted in a sustaining vote of the entire membership.

Talks and statements by GAs, Official Church teaching materials and publications, Church policies, and books by GAs are not official doctrine of the LDS church.

Here is a list of the official LDS church doctrine:
1830, Bible and Book of Mormon were officially accepted with the organization of the Church
1835, Doctrine and Covenants, first 103 sections were officially accepted
1880, Doctrine and Covenants additional 32 sections were accepted along with the Pearl of Great Price
1890, Polygamy was repealed
1976, D&C sections 137 & 138 were officially accepted
1978, The priesthood was made available to all worthy males regardless of race

[_Fence Sitter]

I assume he decided to accept the PhD candidacy at Oxford so he doesn't have time to reply to internet message boards anymore?

He has been active in threads today in the Terrestrial forum.

[_Bazooka]

this subject has been discussed before...Doctrine within the LDS church is rather simple and well defined...only apostate critics argue the "opinion" point.
First
"For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith." - D&C 28:13

Doctrine has only been accepted about 6 times since 1830, and every time by the same process -
It requires the approval of the First Presidency
then a concurrence of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles
and then it must be accepted in a sustaining vote of the entire membership.

Talks and statements by GAs, Official Church teaching materials and publications, Church policies, and books by GAs are not official doctrine of the LDS church.

Here is a list of the official LDS church doctrine:
1830, Bible and Book of Mormon were officially accepted with the organization of the Church
1835, Doctrine and Covenants, first 103 sections were officially accepted
1880, Doctrine and Covenants additional 32 sections were accepted along with the Pearl of Great Price
1890, Polygamy was repealed
1976, D&C sections 137 & 138 were officially accepted
1978, The priesthood was made available to all worthy males regardless of race

So drinking beer isn't against Church doctrine then?
So, using wine for the Sacrament (providing you've brewed it yourself) isn't against Church Doctrine?
So, the Church Handbook(s) of Instruction aren't doctrinal?
The recent changes to the scriptures aren't doctrinal?
In fact, all versions of the Book of Mormon since the 1830 one are non-doctrinal and yet the Church sells them, how odd.

Subby, you are effectively stating that it's the members who decide what is/what isn't doctrine, rather than God. God, via His Prophets can make suggestions about doctrine, but we have the power to veto it if any one of us votes against. That's your position, right?

It is perhaps noteworthy that the official spokesorgan of the Church (Mormon Newsroom) disagree's with your '3 steps to doctrine' process.
Subgenius 3 steps to doctrine:
1. FP approval
2. Q12 concur
3. Entire memberships votes in favour

Mormon Newsroom says:
Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... n-doctrine

No mention of a sustaining vote being required.

[_subgenius]

So drinking beer isn't against Church doctrine then?

seems like D&C 89 is in the above list.

So, using wine for the Sacrament (providing you've brewed it yourself) isn't against Church Doctrine?

correct in as far as it never went through the above mentioned requirements for 'becoming' doctrine (and wine is not brewed, fyi)

So, the Church Handbook(s) of Instruction aren't doctrinal?

incorrect. The Handbook may easily be related to Doctrine (definition of "doctrinal"), but in and of itself it is not Doctrine.

The recent changes to the scriptures aren't doctrinal?
In fact, all versions of the Book of Mormon since the 1830 one are non-doctrinal and yet the Church sells them, how odd.

incorrect...clarifications and corrections (ie typos) are not changes. Besides, changing the cover color from black to blue or from hardback to paperback is not a point of doctrine....but i do appreciate your casual blurring of the topic.

Subby, you are effectively stating that it's the members who decide what is/what isn't doctrine, rather than God. God, via His Prophets can make suggestions about doctrine, but we have the power to veto it if any one of us votes against. That's your position, right?

no, that is not my position...it is my position, an the church's position, that Doctrine is 'decided' as described above....where, clearly and blatantly, no one step determines Doctrine as you are so feebly suggesting.

It is perhaps noteworthy that the official spokesorgan of the Church (Mormon Newsroom) disagree's with your '3 steps to doctrine' process.
Subgenius 3 steps to doctrine:
1. FP approval
2. Q12 concur
3. Entire memberships votes in favour

Mormon Newsroom says:
Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/a ... n-doctrine

No mention of a sustaining vote being required.

again, Mormon Newsroom is not the official source of doctrine either....so, not really "noteworthy", but nice try.
You also misunderstand what you are reading. Perhaps you should re-read beginning with "This Doctrine resides..." (grammatically speaking) and then contrast with your notion that "This Doctrine is created by..."

You are such a good Mormon, yet, at times, you don't seem to be aware of it -

Elder Dieter Uchtdorf has counseled that
“We are a question-asking people. We have always been, because we know that inquiry leads to truth. That is how the Church got its start, from a young man who had questions. In fact, I’m not sure how one can discover truth without asking questions. In the scriptures you will rarely discover a revelation that didn’t come in response to a question…. Inquiry is the birthplace of testimony. “Some might feel embarrassed or unworthy because they have searching questions regarding the gospel, but they needn’t feel that way. Asking questions isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a precursor of growth.”

Yay Bazooka is growing!

President Brigham Young said,
"the greatest fear I have is that the people of this Church will accept what we say as the will of the Lord without first praying about it and getting the witness within their own hearts that what we say is the word of the Lord."

[_Bazooka]

Subby, let me first say that I really enjoy reading your posts, they make me smile (in a good way).

Now, back to where a vote is required to establish doctrine - wanna show me where the Church explains that?

[_Fence Sitter]

So how was the process of common consent Sub is describing followed when the Lectures on Faith were removed from the canon?

[_subgenius]

So how was the process of common consent Sub is describing followed when the Lectures on Faith were removed from the canon?

when the church removed them they explained that the LoF were never presented as being divinely revealed scripture.

[_subgenius]

Subby, let me first say that I really enjoy reading your posts, they make me smile (in a good way).

Now, back to where a vote is required to establish doctrine - wanna show me where the Church explains that?

D&C 28:13 for starters
and then by example we read the statement from President Cannon:
"I hold in my hand the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and also the book, The Pearl of Great Price, which books contain revelations of God. In Kirtland, the Doctrine and Covenants in its original form, as first printed, was submitted to the officers of the Church and the members of the Church to vote upon. As there have been additions made to it by the publishing of revelations which were not contained in the original edition, it has been deemed wise to submit these books with their contents to the conference, to see whether the conference will vote to accept the books and their contents as from God, and binding upon us as a people and as a Church" (emphasis mine)

and by Elder Roberts:
"which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone. These would include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price; these have been repeatedly accepted and endorsed by the Church in general conference assembled, and are the only sources of absolute appeal for our doctrine.”(emphasis mine)

"Let them rule themselves"
http://prophetjosephsmith.org/joseph-sm ... 30/leading

[_Bazooka]

Subby, let me first say that I really enjoy reading your posts, they make me smile (in a good way).

Now, back to where a vote is required to establish doctrine - wanna show me where the Church explains that?

D&C 28:13 for starters
and then by example we read the statement from President Cannon:
"I hold in my hand the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and also the book, The Pearl of Great Price, which books contain revelations of God. In Kirtland, the Doctrine and Covenants in its original form, as first printed, was submitted to the officers of the Church and the members of the Church to vote upon. As there have been additions made to it by the publishing of revelations which were not contained in the original edition, it has been deemed wise to submit these books with their contents to the conference, to see whether the conference will vote to accept the books and their contents as from God, and binding upon us as a people and as a Church" (emphasis mine)

and by Elder Roberts:
"which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone. These would include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price; these have been repeatedly accepted and endorsed by the Church in general conference assembled, and are the only sources of absolute appeal for our doctrine.”(emphasis mine)

"Let them rule themselves"
http://prophetjosephsmith.org/joseph-sm ... 30/leading

The statements by Elder Cannon and Elder Roberts are not doctrinal and cannot therefore be accepted as valid references.

D&C 28:13 13 For all things must be done in order, and by common consent in the church, by the prayer of faith.

Also

nothing to be taken from treasury except by voice or common consent of order: D&C 104:64, 71–72 .

When did the Church vote on spending the money on City Creek?