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[Guest]

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[_Bazooka]

Now you get me!

Activism/agitation from within and from without is the only thing that brings about positive change within the Church. LDS history tells us that.

I don't wish to leave the Church (for a variety of non spiritual reasons).
I simply want the Church organisation to be more aligned to its own stated standards for members.
To achieve that, the members need to speak up and challenge things.
Consig seems to do that in a far more Christlike fashion than anyone I know, and I include myself in that.

[_ludwigm]

A fifth column is a group of people who undermine a larger group, such as a nation or a besieged city, from within. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine. Forces gathered in secret can mobilize when coordination with an external attack requires and extend even to uniformed military operations as part of a coordinated campaign. They can be clandestine, involving acts of sabotage, disinformation campaigns, or espionage executed within defense lines by secret sympathizers with an external force.

Hemingway...

[_Bazooka]

Ludders, I'm not thinking of a fith column style enterprise.
I'm more about the members using their brains and their voices to shift the Church forward.

[_ludwigm]

One may call the dog's tail leg. This doesn't make the dog five-legged.


And my name is ludwigm...
Something of REAL name, by the way.

[_Bazooka]

One may call the dog's tail leg. This doesn't make the dog five-legged.


And my name is ludwigm...
Something of REAL name, by the way.

Ludwigm,

Rather than a fifth column, think of it as Shareholders voicing their opinions to the CEO on how the company is being run. The CEO either changes the operation of the company or else he faces being voted out or losing his shareholders. In the case of the Church, the CEO always takes the route that keeps him in a job and which retains the shareholders.
("Ludders" is meant as a friendly name for Ludwigm and not meant as an insult)

[_subgenius]

...(snip)...
I simply want the Church organisation to be more aligned to its own stated standards for members....(snip)...

and your support of SSM contradicts this premise....any other motives, perhaps of the more plausible flavor, that you would like to offer up for sale?

[_Bazooka]

...(snip)...
I simply want the Church organisation to be more aligned to its own stated standards for members....(snip)...

and your support of SSM contradicts this premise....any other motives, perhaps of the more plausible flavor, that you would like to offer up for sale?

You misrepresent me.
I don't support same sex marriage, I support a gay persons right to equality of treatment with regards to the institution of human matrimony.
If the Church doesn't want to operate marriage services for gay people, that's fine. But they shouldn't seek to impinge their standard definition of marriage on other areas of society that aren't Mormon. Which is what the Church actively tried to do. If the Church rallies the troops in an active way to influence external society then it shouldn't be at all surprised to see society return the favour.

The Church cannot preach respect for gay people with one side of it's mouth and proselyte against same sex marriage out of the other.

The Church preaches honesty, but practices dishonesty.
The Church preaches respect, but practices disrespect.
The Church preaches tolerance, but is intolerant in it's policies and practices.
The Church teaches Christian Love , but operates a system of discipline, sanction and outcasting.

All I do is hold up a mirror. It's not my fault if members don't like what they see.

[_ludwigm]

The CEO either changes the operation of the company or else he faces being voted out or losing his shareholders. In the case of the Church, the CEO always takes the route that keeps him in a job and which retains the shareholders.

OK.
Unfortunately, the church doesn't change its operation and neglect+deny the losing of his shareholders (by the way fitting word...).

The same as our leading party, which has a 2/3 majority. That majority means they can do anything. Unfortunately, they really do everything. They cement themselves into every position. Nationalize everything, redistribute everything (read: all the money). The prime minister, the president of Hungary, the president of the parlament (the three highest position of the country) - and the leader of the biggest company were roommates in college.
The same situation as Mussolini was. He was voted into the absolute power by a democratic election - and without WW II. he would be at rudder today, even as a mummy.
But this is our social problem...

The church doesn't listen the shareholders.
The Communist Bolshevik (=majority) Party of the Soviet Union simply expelled the Mensheviks (=minority). At first. Later, they have killed the remainder.
In 1952, at the 19th Party Congress, Stalin declared: "There are no more Mensheviks. Why should we call ourselves Bolsheviks? We are not the majority, but the whole party.

The history repeats itself. Names may change.

"Ludders" is meant as a friendly name for Ludwigm and not meant as an insult

I am not insulted... Only a murmur.

[_subgenius]

You misrepresent me.
I don't support same sex marriage, I support a gay persons right to equality of treatment with regards to the institution of human matrimony.
If the Church doesn't want to operate marriage services for gay people, that's fine. But they shouldn't seek to impinge their standard definition of marriage on other areas of society that aren't Mormon. Which is what the Church actively tried to do. If the Church rallies the troops in an active way to influence external society then it shouldn't be at all surprised to see society return the favour.

The Church cannot preach respect for gay people with one side of it's mouth and proselyte against same sex marriage out of the other.

The Church preaches honesty, but practices dishonesty.
The Church preaches respect, but practices disrespect.
The Church preaches tolerance, but is intolerant in it's policies and practices.
The Church teaches Christian Love , but operates a system of discipline, sanction and outcasting.

All I do is hold up a mirror. It's not my fault if members don't like what they see.

Funny way of saying you actually do support SSM. And you do not hold up a mirror, for you are not objective with any of your images. You are deceitful and manipulative with the only motive being contention and cynicism.
Thus the snake oil, you have personal issues with the church, that is obvious, which you passively assault on this anonymous form. Your expectation being a pat on your own back for a knife in theirs.
The fact is, you misrepresent yourself.
Indeed