The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

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_Bazooka
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Bazooka »

BartBurk wrote:
Albion wrote:Except that Christians identify Jesus as God so I don't see how it makes any difference the way you phrase it. Father, Son or Holy Spirit are to Christians one God.


I guess Mormons have to be considered Christian then because the Book of Mormon identifies Jesus as God.


Really?
Do Christians believe only Mormons will live with God?
No?
Well then, Mormon's ain't no Christains.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_BartBurk
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _BartBurk »

Bazooka wrote:
BartBurk wrote:I guess Mormons have to be considered Christian then because the Book of Mormon identifies Jesus as God.


Really?
Do Christians believe only Mormons will live with God?
No?
Well then, Mormon's ain't no Christains.


I don't really have a clue what you are suggesting here. Catholics believe that salvation only comes through the Catholic Church. That doesn't mean that Catholics believe only Catholics are saved. Does that mean Catholics aren't Christian?
_Droopy
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Droopy »

Mittens wrote:The Book of Mormon completely disagrees with Mormonism when it come to the Person and Nature of Jesus. Does the Book of Mormon teach Jesus was God the Father's Son in the pre-existence ? No, just the opposite it says he was God from Eternity . and only became the son because of the flesh. The Book of Mormon completely agrees with the Creeds, except where it teaches God the Father and Jesus are same person.


1. The creeds are primarily statements of philosophical theology about the metaphysics of competing Christologies that emerged well over a century after the last of the apostles and the fragmentation of the early Christian church into a large variety of sects and factions, and represents primarily the attempt to merge Alexandrian academic philosophy with Christian doctrine.

2. The Book of Mormon agrees with Hebrews that Christ was the "first begotten."

3. Read the Book of Mormon, Kittens. The Brother of Jared had a direct open vision of the prexistent Christ in physical form, long before his birth in mortality.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.


Jesus Christ is God. He is also eternal. We, each one of us, are also eternal. None of us, including God, have ever not existed at some level of development or state of existence. Jesus is, hence, the eternal God, being both a god and an eternal being. This doesn't mean that God has always just somehow been God, a position that creates intractable philosophical and theological problems that first flourished in early medieval times and that the Restoration actually went a long way to dispelling.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Droopy »

Albion wrote:As good a time as any I suppose to ask why, if Jesus was A God before he came to earth he was able to circumvent the principle of progression required for all people, to which the Father was also subject, if he was already a God before going through a mortal life with all the necessary requirements for godhood. I have yet to hear a good explanation of this from any Mormon and would appreciate kn owing the current reasoning.



That's a good and interesting question, and one that can be answered to at least some extent by extrapolating from the body of restoration doctrine we now have and with a working knowledge of LDS teachings relative to the nature of God's children and the eternal consciousness or intelligent essence that is at the core of their beingness itself.

The short answer is simply that Jesus did not, in any sense circumvent his mortal experience. Indeed, the Book of Hebrews articulates a clear conception of Jesus as a being that, although literally God himself, was, during his mortal experience, undergoing a process of learning and experience that was necessary to his ultimate mission and calling as the Savior of the world.

The fundamental difference, I would think, between Jesus and ourselves is that Jesus' mortal experience was not fundamentally a probationary state, but a state of increased awareness and understanding relative to the conditions mortals face in that probationary state.

Secondly, its clear from numerous teachings from the early years of the church to the present, from the scriptures, and from a number of non-canonical sources, that the concept "god" is not limited to its ultimate expression as a perfected, glorified being in the highest level of the celestial kingdom who has received a fullness of celestial glory and development.

Jesus himself was God incarnate, but also, as he himself made clear, did not receive all power in heaven and earth until after the completion of his passion, his crucifixion, and resurrection. It does appear that there were other preexistent children of God who attained the status of "god" in the prexistent world, although not approximating the godhood of the premortal Jesus Christ, who was "more intelligent than they all," as the Book of Abraham phrases it.

One can, in other words, in a prexistent realm, attain a god-like state of development but still be required to undergo a mortal probationary state to test one's faith and metal while connected to mortal element. Another being, such as Jesus, may approach the very apex of godhood while still a preexsitent spirit, and hence, have a different purpose in undergoing mortality, or a special mission (such as savior, redeemer etc.) needed to perfect that godhood to its ultimate degree.

Note the even Christ, in his most painful and agonizing moment, cried out "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" when, as LDS doctrine teaches, the spirit of the Father was withdrawn from him completely for a few moments so that his utter victory over Satan and the world could truly be his victory, as an individual. He was free, he had agency, and could have, due to these core aspects of consciousness and the fundamental nature of the plan of salvation, made other choices. It is possible (less plausible), as a matter of the fundamental nature of consciousness and individual intelligence itself, that Jesus could have failed in some aspect of his mortal mission, or declined it. Even he asked that the cup, if it were possible, could be removed from his lips, that he might not drink. But, of course, he said "Thy will be done."

So I don't think Jesus in any way circumvented the requirements of a mortal experience (this seems, in fact, to be exactly what Lucifer had in mind for himself - to avoid the risk of losing all his prior intelligence, power, authority, and status by coming into mortality with the veil of forgetfulness fully in operation and blowing it in mortality). They were different, in his case, because of the level of development he attained in the preexistence, but the requirement remained.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Albion
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Albion »

I'll have to digest that more but at first glance it does not present anything better than I have heard before. Perhaps, too, you can explain why the Father went through a mortal life, did all the things required of him to be exalted to the status of God with all the world creating abilities so entailed, only to give all that he earned over to his first spiritual offspring who somehow had the title god essentially on the strength of the Father's apparent whim. If my question is confusing, I'm not quite sure what that makes your answer so far.
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Droopy »

Albion wrote:I'll have to digest that more but at first glance it does not present anything better than I have heard before.


Better than what? What kind of answer are you looking for?

Perhaps, too, you can explain why the Father went through a mortal life, did all the things required of him to be exalted to the status of God with all the world creating abilities so entailed, only to give all that he earned over to his first spiritual offspring who somehow had the title god essentially on the strength of the Father's apparent whim. If my question is confusing, I'm not quite sure what that makes your answer so far.


I'm not sure I follow. LDS doctrine doesn't teach any of your above points.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Albion
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Albion »

Better than any answers I've heard before. Regardless of how you put it, Jesus was a God before he gained a body and your answer does not clarify in any meaningful way.
_Albion
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Albion »

Better than any answers I've heard before. Regardless of how you put it, Jesus was a God before he gained a body and your answer does not clarify in any meaningful way.
_Mittens
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Mittens »

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.



2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;


Mosiah 5:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent , may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all . Amen.

Helaman 14:12 And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.

Mormon 9:9
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.


Doesn't sound like the God Joseph Smith Jr said was not God from eternity does it


God An Exalted Man

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man , and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Bazooka
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Re: The Person and Nature of Jesus in the Book of Mormon

Post by _Bazooka »

Droopy wrote:
Albion wrote:As good a time as any I suppose to ask why, if Jesus was A God before he came to earth he was able to circumvent the principle of progression required for all people, to which the Father was also subject, if he was already a God before going through a mortal life with all the necessary requirements for godhood. I have yet to hear a good explanation of this from any Mormon and would appreciate kn owing the current reasoning.



That's a good and interesting question, and one that can be answered to at least some extent by extrapolating from the body of restoration doctrine we now have and with a working knowledge of LDS teachings relative to the nature of God's children and the eternal consciousness or intelligent essence that is at the core of their beingness itself.

The short answer is simply that Jesus did not, in any sense circumvent his mortal experience.


Droopy, we learn from the Book of Abraham that "the Gods" created the earth.
1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

We learn from the Temple Endowment that the Gods referred to in the Book of Abraham were, in actual fact, Christ and Michael.
This means that Christ AND Michael (who became Adam) were God's before they partook of mortality.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
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