Defending the God-Given Institution of Marriage

[_Darth J]

In summary:

1. The modern, Western idea of marriage based on romantic love between one man and one woman who are equal partners has existed throughout all human history.

2. It's okay for Mormons and traditional Christians to co-opt symbolic elements from non-Christian and/or secular sources and give their own meaning to those symbols, but it's not okay for atheists or gay people to do that.

3. All religions teach that homosexual relationships/marriages are sinful, because Mormons speak on behalf of all religious people generally.

4. If I assert that the majority believes X, I also get to assert that a poll is irrelevant to determining whether the majority really believes X.

5. If marriage is allowed between two people of the same sex, then it will lead to marriage between a human and an animal or a human and an inanimate object, because the history of expanding equal rights to all classes of human beings in the Western world invariably shows that when you grant one group of human beings the same rights as other groups of human beings, the law has been completely unable to tell the difference between a human being and an animal or an inanimate object.

6. The legal institution of marriage is about having children and raising children, notwithstanding that those are not legal elements of marriage anywhere in the United States.

7. Men and women have always had the same gender roles in all times, countries, and cultures that they currently have in the modern United States.

8. Scientific research that supports my foregone conclusion that gay people cannot be good parents is valid scientific research. Scientific research that says otherwise is not valid scientific research.

[_honorentheos]

No, I don't. Culture in sociology refers to societal behaviors and beliefs. Symbolism falls under a culture’s norms. Tradition is another subset of norms, though there is an intersection here with values.

yawn....then explain, still, what "belief" is being associate with the white wedding dress.

That if everyone expects you to wear a royal red dress and you show up in a shocking white one, you will be the talk of the kingdom and all the little girls of the realm will wish to emulate you.

....while you would try to claim "cultural", most literate people realize that cultural is merely the flavor of tradition...

Do they, now? I’d be interested in seeing a poll of most literate people showing they share your view on the subsuming of culture into “the flavor of tradition”.

Poll?....are you stating that the majority opinion is what determines the reality/truth of this situation?

Let's see. "Most literate people", who's phrase was that again?

Let's cut to the chase. You ask -

you are suggesting that marriage is what exactly?

My answer - a man-made practice that has significant cultural meaning that evolves as cultures evolve.

It's not God-given which is the subject of the OP.

Summary
Marriage = man-made, a unique expression of each culture within which it is found

God-Given = something that comes from God

Same-Sex Unions = Something found in multiple cultures throughout human history

[_subgenius]

That if everyone expects you to wear a royal red dress and you show up in a shocking white one, you will be the talk of the kingdom and all the little girls of the realm will wish to emulate you.

this makes no sense...even sarcastically. Have an actual answer?

Do they, now? I’d be interested in seeing a poll of most literate people showing they share your view on the subsuming of culture into “the flavor of tradition”.

Poll?....are you stating that the majority opinion is what determines the reality/truth of this situation?

Let's see. "Most literate people", who's phrase was that again?[/quote]
Then explain that measure to the "majority" of voters who voted for Prop 8....because according to you and "most literate people" thye were right and they were true.

Let's cut to the chase. You ask -

you are suggesting that marriage is what exactly?

My answer - a man-made practice that has significant cultural meaning that evolves as cultures evolve.

I see you opted to ignore the word "exactly"....
yet marriage must certainly have its foundation...some underlying principle that it has maintained...for example, a dolphin has never evolved from an oak tree nor from a cheetah.
Marriage being heterosexual is like that....its significance being derived from being a heterosexual endeavor.

It's not God-given which is the subject of the OP.

the OP is absurd and poorly reasoned...almost incoherent.
Marriage, no doubt, is of a divine origin. There is no temporal evidence for its genesis, every aspect of it - regardless of culture, is supernatural/spiritual. To label it man-made is rather sophomoric. Marriage is not a tool per se, for it has no influence on the material world, it does not sharpen the plow, does no illuminate the dark, does not quicken the hunt. It has nothing more than a spiritual purpose with temporal consequences.

Summary
Marriage = man-made, a unique expression of each culture within which it is found

ironically being found in every culture...thus transient and objective.

God-Given = something that comes from God

Same-Sex Unions = Something found in multiple cultures throughout human history

so is murder, rape, and laziness...does not make it a virtue.

thanks hippie

[_MeDotOrg]

subgenius, you are caught on the horns of a dilemma. The more you try to refute the validity of the arguments of honorentheos, the more difficulty you have in disproving the validity of mine.

the OP is absurd and poorly reasoned...almost incoherent.
Marriage, no doubt, is of a divine origin. There is no temporal evidence for its genesis, every aspect of it - regardless of culture, is supernatural/spiritual. To label it man-made is rather sophomoric. Marriage is not a tool per se, for it has no influence on the material world, it does not sharpen the plow, does no illuminate the dark, does not quicken the hunt. It has nothing more than a spiritual purpose with temporal consequences.

di·vine (d-vn)
adj. di·vin·er, di·vin·est

1.
a. Having the nature of or being a deity.
b. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation.
c. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred.

Thank you for once again reiterating my point: Namely, that if you believe that marriage is God-Given, ordained by God, or divine, then believing that a marriage that denies "the spiritual purpose of marriage", denies the existence of God, or worships God's nemesis (Satan) is not in keeping with the 'spiritual purpose' of marriage and should be prohibited.

marriage occurs between a man and a woman adheres to its Divine nature. Just because a couple does not belong to a church, believe in God, or practice any religion does not exempt them from compliance...by default they are adhering to the design, and arguably drawing nearer to God (knowingly or unknowingly).

The definition of divine states clearly that they are NOT adhering to its divine nature. Saying that it's okay because at some point in the future someone, may, by virtue of the fact that they are married, MIGHT at sometime in the future be drawn, knowingly or unknowingly, nearer to God is so broad a loophole as to be practically meaningless.

Adultery is considered a sin, even if the person committing adultery is married. Being married does not give you special dispensation from not following the rest of God's laws. Whether that person might be drawn closer to God at sometime in the future does not excuse their behavior in the present.

So the basic question remains: If you are truly concerned about defending marriage as a God-given (or divine) institution, what legal remedies will you support to prohibit people who don't believe in God and don't support the divine nature of marriage from marrying?

[_just me]

I wonder what it means that many wedding dresses today are not bridal white. Many brides are wearing ivory, cream, off white and even blush. I went wedding gown shopping Saturday and only about 10% off the dresses at one shop were white.

by the way, I bought my dress!!! It's an ivory champagne. Gorgeous! Ivory lace over champagne satin. Love.