Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

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_Brackite
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _Brackite »

Some protesters in California burned a California state flag (I don't know why they were so angry at the state of California for a case that was tried in Florida).


If this same case was tried in California, Zimmerman would have likely been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Brackite wrote:
Some protesters in California burned a California state flag (I don't know why they were so angry at the state of California for a case that was tried in Florida).


If this same case was tried in California, Zimmerman would have likely been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.


Of course.... Only in Liberal California and liberals elsewhere wouldn't know the difference between involuntary manslaughter and self-defense. No surprise there.

Liberals think "death" itself is the actual SIN, rather than HOW it occured.
Zimmerman and Trayvon, the poster children of this fact.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _ldsfaqs »

by the way..... The liberals HAVE been "rioting" a few places now, contrary to the liberals here who believed there wouldn't be any, despite past examples.

Also, how come Conservatives never are seen "rioting" ANYWHERE in the world???
It's always liberals rioting, vandelizing, violence, etc.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_krose
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _krose »

Darkhelmet -

No, I didn't see most of those. Granted, I have been mostly ignoring the trial coverage until the end, but I wonder what you watch and read that I don't?

Also, how many Internet comments are required to make something a "flood"? I would consider the comments about Sharknado this past week something close. That I definitely noticed, but not threats of street violence.

(By the way, personal threats against one person, while unacceptable, are not threats to riot.)
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_Brackite
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _Brackite »

From The Oakland Tribune:

No arrests after Saturday night vandalism in downtown Oakland

...

OAKLAND -- No one was arrested during a march late Saturday night throughout downtown Oakland, in which about 100 people broke windows, vandalized cars and buildings with spray paint and started fires in the street in protest of George Zimmerman's acquittal hours earlier in a Florida courtroom.

The atmosphere was tense, with some marchers attempting to start fights and police dressed in riot gear in front of the police department headquarters, according to staff photographer Anda Chu. Footage from television helicopters showed protesters trashing a police squad car and a line of police blocking the protesters' path.

Occupy Oakland organized the gathering over Twitter at 10 p.m., encouraging protesters to wear hoodies, as Trayvon Martin did when he was shot to death by Zimmerman.

Some protesters held a banner declaring: "We Are All Trayvon Martin." Others spray-painted anti-police graffiti throughout Frank Ogawa Plaza, while a small contingent of officers looked on from afar.

The group began to march around 11 p.m. and some began breaking windows, including some on the Oakland Tribune downtown offices.

One BART police car was also vandalized with spray paint and its windows were smashed. Protesters also burned an American and a California state flag at a McDonald's restaurant on 14th and Jackson streets and spray painted Alameda County's Davidson courthouse.

Police said no one was injured.

...


Yes, a California State flag really got burned up over the Zimmerman verdict that happened in Florida.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Droopy
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:The Bell Curve explicitly argues that IQ is a valid and reliable measure of intelligence, that racial groups have significant disparities in IQ, that IQ is largely heritable, and therefore that racial differences in intelligence are significantly a consequence of genetics. I thought you read it?


You engage, now and then, in bald mendacity the likes of which I still, for some reason, don't expect from you. Too bad.

You're seriously misrepresenting Murray (and you know very well you are, I suspect, but I may be wrong), so we'll have to let Murray speak for himself, as you've recused yourself from consideration as an intellectually serious interlocutor.

Keep in mind that Def clearly does not understand what Murray and Herrnstein were actually saying, or, if he does, is willing to honestly represent it. The book's fundamental conclusions about race and IQ are:

If the reader is now convinced that either the genetic or environmental explanation has won out to the exclusion of the other, we have not done a sufficiently good job of presenting one side or the other. It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences. What might the mix be? We are resolutely agnostic on that issue; as far as we can determine, the evidence does not yet justify an estimate.


The data is not in question, and never has been among social scientists who have studied average IQ differences across racial, ethnic, and class spheres for generations. What seems to be the problem is the shattering of liberal sugar plum fairy dreams about the absolute and utter equality of all human beings across all aspects of the human species in a cognitive sense.

There do appear to be average variations in IQ across various groups and sub-groups of human beings. In gospel terms, some have 10 talents, some 5, some 2, and some only 1. Now, take a look here for a clear and concise review of what Murray and Herrnstien were trying to get across in their book:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kci18nbxvY
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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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_Droopy
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:You refer to its conclusions as settled empirical social science, despite denying that psychology and therefore psychometrics even is a science,


Another misrepresentation of my views (keep racking them up, Def).

I'm not sure what you mean by "psychology," but yes, I do hold the view that much of clinical psychology (e.g. counseling psychology, psychotherapy, developmental psychology, personality theory etc, and, of course, psychiatry), is not science in any normative sense, even though it, like sociology, also not a "science" in the sense of the biological or hard sciences, imports certain methodologies and intellectual tools from the sciences.

I don't recall saying anything about psychometrics, although I do think that IQ is to a fair degree overvalued as a barometer of the totality of mental ability and dynamic potential.

And I still agree with Sowell et al that culture, more than genetics, is key in the development of the cognitive attributes measured in IQ tests, more so than Murray would probably accept.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_EAllusion
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:You engage, now and then, in bald mendacity the likes of which I still, for some reason, don't expect from you. Too bad.


Stating that genes and environment both add something to the mix of racial differences in IQ scores does not contradict the assertion that genetics are a significant contributor to the racial differences in IQ scores. If anything, confirms it*. Do you know what the word "significant" means in social science? That Murray and Hernstein were making the argument I attribute to them, and you if anything confirm with your quote, is not normally in dispute by anyone. It's one of the theses advanced in the book, after all, and the chief basis for stirring up a media controversy and response. Yet you write this post. Awesome.

That's why this APA taskforce document:

http://www.unc.edu/~nielsen/soci850/odocs/apa_01.htm

takes some time contradicting that assertion. The central fallacy of their argument, incidentally, is that it confuses within-group comparisons with out-group comparisons. The document I link above points this out. IU's critique puts it this way:

http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/bellcurv ... criticisms

Herrnstein and Murray's second claim, the lightning rod for most commentary, extends the argument for innate cognitive stratification to a claim that racial differences in IQ are mostly determined by genetic causes small differences for Asian superiority over Caucasian, but large for Caucasians over people of African descent. This argument is as old as the study of race, and is almost surely fallacious. The last generation's discussion centered on Arthur Jensen's 1980 book Bias in Mental Testing (far more elaborate and varied than anything presented in The Bell Curve, and therefore still a better source for grasping the argument and its problems), and on the cranky advocacy of William Shockley, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist. The central fallacy in using the substantial heritability of within-group IQ (among whites, for example) as an explanation of average differences between groups (whites versus blacks, for example) is now well known and acknowledged by all, including Herrnstein and Murray, but deserves a restatement by example. Take a trait that is far more heritable than anyone has ever claimed IQ to be but is politically uncontroversial body height. Suppose that I measure the heights of adult males in a poor Indian village beset with nutritional deprivation, and suppose the average height of adult males is five feet six inches. Heritability within the village is high, which is to say that tall fathers (they may average five feet eight inches) tend to have tall sons, while short fathers (five feet four inches on average) tend to have short sons. But this high heritability within the village does not mean that better nutrition might not raise average height to five feet ten inches in a few generations. Similarly, the well-documented fifteen-point average difference in IQ between blacks and whites in America, with substantial heritability of IQ in family lines within each group, permits no automatic conclusion that truly equal opportunity might not raise the black average enough to equal or surpass the white mean. (p. 5)


Of course, you're denying that this argument is occurring at all, which makes me sincerely doubt you've read the book or understand it. Then again, you also state, in this thread no less, "Unsurprisingly, I side with Sowell on this, and think that Murray and others within traditional academic sociology place exaggerated emphasis of genetic/biological factors. Murray himself has been clear that genetics, psychology, and environment (nature/nurture) play complex, interpenetrating roles in generating the general cognitive patterns that are measured in IQ tests, but believes that genetics is dominant." So you acknowledge what I asserted while at the same time decrying it as a mendacious misrepresentation. It's like you are blacking out inbetween posts.
_DarkHelmet
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _DarkHelmet »

krose wrote:Darkhelmet -

No, I didn't see most of those. Granted, I have been mostly ignoring the trial coverage until the end, but I wonder what you watch and read that I don't?

Also, how many Internet comments are required to make something a "flood"? I would consider the comments about Sharknado this past week something close. That I definitely noticed, but not threats of street violence.

(By the way, personal threats against one person, while unacceptable, are not threats to riot.)


I spend a lot of time in different discussion forums, so I get exposed to a lot of different opinions. I found out about the Victor Cruz tweet on an NFL forum. That led me to links filled with pages and pages of ugly tweets about starting riots and killing Zimmerman. I saw the Zimmerman in crosshairs T-shirt on a news photo of the crowd outside the courthouse. I read about the protester vandalism in a Yahoo news story. I didn't follow much of the trial until the end. I was a big Trayvon Martin supporter when the story first broke last year and I believed the news media reports of a wanna be cop who stalked and murdered a teenager. Anyone can search my posts from last year and see that I was a vehement supporter of Martin. I was outraged that Zimmerman wasn't at least charged. Like many, I felt there needed to be a trial so the facts can be determined and the legal process can sort this whole mess out. As the full story started to unfold and real facts were uncovered during the trial, it became obvious that the news media was telling a very one-sided story. They weren't reporting news, they were fabricating news, and it really soured me to the prosecution's case.

I also remember the original story was Zimmerman was uninjured, and the news media was saying that if Zimmerman was injured he might have a case, but since he wasn't, it proves he killed Trayvon Martin in cold blood. I was very bothered when not only was it shown that Zimmerman was injured, but that the news media knew he was injured and tried to cover it up. Then, come to find out that all the racist stuff about Zimmerman was fabricated by the media, splicing together sound bites to make him sound racist, and turning his words into racial slurs, when it turns out he never uttered a racial slur and never made any racial comments. Now that there was proof Zimmerman was injured, and he wasn't a racist, the story changed to he deserved to be beaten up for stalking Trayvon Martin. Also, originally Trayvon Martin's supporters (including me) were saying we just wanted Zimmerman to be charged so there could be a proper trial to determine his guilt or innocence. Now that the evidence has been presented, and a jury acquitted him, it's not good enough. Now there are calls for the DOJ to bring federal charges against him. For me, I just wanted due process. I've come to the realization that for most Trayvon Martin supporters it was never about due process, it's about making sure Zimmerman pays for what he did, because they've already convicted him in their own mind.
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_Brackite
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Re: Zimmerman Gets Proper Justice

Post by _Brackite »

"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
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