Zimmerman's Pointless Trial

[_cinepro]

It's become impossible to be aware of the news and not aware of the minute details of this trial, so for what it is worth, I would vote to convict Zimmerman of a manslaughter charge, but not murder. I think some of the details are sufficiently murky that there is reasonable doubt of the criteria needed to be out and out murder.

I am sympathetic to some skepticism in what initially looked like could become a media-fueled witch hunt of Zimmerman, but I think the facts of the case clearly demonstrate Zimmerman acted unlawfully to create the circumstances that caused Martin's death.

I don't think everyone appreciates the extent to which African-Americans are profiled and live under a quasi-police state in huge swathes of the United States and how this reality has created a great deal of resentment that can be projected into this case. Zimmerman regarded Martin - an innocent teenager getting some skittles - as suspicious and worthy of following. There is no indication whatsoever Martin was doing anything suspicious and its hard to imagine how racial stereotyping of Martin's look and cohort did not play a role in that judgment.

While I am sympathetic to some reasoned skepticism of convicting Zimmerman, I am absolutely appalled by the extent to which outright racist reasoning has informed right-wing media commentary on this trial, even in sources that are mainstream by conservative media standards. That is stoking the fires of racial resentment. That doesn't justify any violent response if Zimmerman is acquitted, but it certainly is contributing to a tense atmosphere surrounding the verdict.

I heard a commentator this morning (I think it was on George Stephanopolis's show on ABC) observe that there were two facets to the Zimmerman trial: the "larger" issues of race and profiling, and the specific details of what happened that night.

Trayvon Martin getting killed is an admittedly awful situation any way you look at it. The issues of profiling, race and "justice" are also important ones. But he noted (as a correspondent who had watched ever second of the trial) that when you actually looked at the Zimmerman situation and what happened (and what they said happened, and the evidence shown etc.), there just wasn't enough there to support a conviction.

So, if that's true, the jury did what they were supposed to and made the best call they could. Our justice system is obviously imperfect, and there's never a guarantee that a jury trial will result in a "just" decision based on our cosmic sense of right and wrong with every factor considered.

Hopefully, to the degree that justice has not been served, this will result in changes that will improve the situation for next time (like changing laws about the appropriate use of deadly force?)

[_Bazooka]

As far as I understand it, here's what happened.

1. Zimmerman, whilst on patrol observes what he determines to be a suspicious individual. This is what he is employed to do.
2. Zimmerman then, presumably following proper procedure, rings it in to the police. The police commit to following it up and Zimmerman is advised to stay in his car and await police arrival.
3. Zimmerman, against the advice of the police and, presumably, against proper procedure, gets out of the car and tails the suspicious individual. Zimmerman is now behaving in a manner which, presumably, he is not authorised to do.
4. At some point before the police arrive the suspicious individual becomes aware of Zimmerman. Either by noticing the tail or by Zimmerman confronting him. We don't really know which.
5. An altercation arises during which Zimmerman is smacked about and the suspicious individual is shot dead.

Three comments (from a distant observer that really doesn't have a dog in this particular fight).
1. I don't get why this is about race. Zimmerman is paid to notice suspicious individuals and report them, regardless of their ethnicity. It's not like he ignored all the suspicious Hispanic youths (Zimmerman is Hispanic) and singled out the black one.
2. Zimmerman is clearly guilty of precipitating the events to the escalation point that they reached because he didn't follow either proper procedure or the instructions of the police. In my opinion that leaves him open to some form of judicial accountability for the outcome.
3. Had he not been armed, I doubt Zimmerman would have been gung-ho enough to get out of his vehicle. If he (Zimmerman) wasn't armed, Trayvon Martin would still be alive. Time to sort the gun laws out methinks. There's been enough incidents just this year to be evidence enough that something has to be done.

[_beastie]

As far as I understand it, here's what happened.

1. Zimmerman, whilst on patrol observes what he determines to be a suspicious individual. This is what he is employed to do.
2. Zimmerman then, presumably following proper procedure, rings it in to the police. The police commit to following it up and Zimmerman is advised to stay in his car and await police arrival.
3. Zimmerman, against the advice of the police and, presumably, against proper procedure, gets out of the car and tails the suspicious individual. Zimmerman is now behaving in a manner which, presumably, he is not authorised to do.
4. At some point before the police arrive the suspicious individual becomes aware of Zimmerman. Either by noticing the tail or by Zimmerman confronting him. We don't really know which.
5. An altercation arises during which Zimmerman is smacked about and the suspicious individual is shot dead.

Three comments (from a distant observer that really doesn't have a dog in this particular fight).
1. I don't get why this is about race. Zimmerman is paid to notice suspicious individuals and report them, regardless of their ethnicity. It's not like he ignored all the suspicious Hispanic youths (Zimmerman is Hispanic) and singled out the black one.
2. Zimmerman is clearly guilty of precipitating the events to the escalation point that they reached because he didn't follow either proper procedure or the instructions of the police. In my opinion that leaves him open to some form of judicial accountability for the outcome.
3. Had he not been armed, I doubt Zimmerman would have been gung-ho enough to get out of his vehicle. If he (Zimmerman) wasn't armed, Trayvon Martin would still be alive. Time to sort the gun laws out methinks. There's been enough incidents just this year to be evidence enough that something has to be done.

Zimmerman wasn't "on duty" for neighborhood watch that night. He was going to the grocery store and noticed Trayvon on the way. He was carrying a gun because he carries a gun with him all the time, except at work. Of course, he later told police he "forgot" he had the gun until he decided to shoot Trayvon. Another one of his obvious lies.

Zimmerman called in reports to the nonemergency 911 number hundreds of times over the course of several years. Most of the time it was for stupid stuff, like a car was in the neighborhood he didn't recognize. But the only times he called about suspicious individuals were when the individuals were black males, even if they were in a group including very young children. There's no doubt he was racially profiling. There had been a robbery in his neighborhood committed by black males. So either he thought those individuals were coming back, or that fact made him decide that black males were suspicious in general, I don't know. That's why I say there isn't sufficient evidence to declare a racist motivation, although he was engaged in racial profiling.

by the way, I don't think being neighborhood watch is a paid position. It's volunteers.

I agree that the gun laws in Fla are problematic. As has been repeatedly point out on this thread, if you want to kill someone in Fla, just act provocatively towards them at night without witnesses. Then when a physical fight begins, make sure you have a few wounds, insignificant is OK. Then shoot him. You're in the clear. Laws that allow that situation are a problem.

[_Bazooka]

beastie, given that Zimmerman has been acquitted, do you feel that is a failing of some sort? The jurors?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Welp.

I'm glad to have been wrong.

Thank...Thank god there haven't been any riots.

- Doc

ETA:

Good to see our President calling for peace:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/14/politics/ ... index.html

[_beastie]

beastie, given that Zimmerman has been acquitted, do you feel that is a failing of some sort? The jurors?

I don't fault the jurors. Everyone could tell the defense was better. The defense successfully put Trayvon on trial, and the prosecution didn't adequately deal with that. There were other things that the prosecutor let slide, in my opinion. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I think they should have built the case for manslaughter, and they almost solely focused on murder.

I fault the laws of Florida. If their laws allow the following to take place:

1. Person A acts provocatively towards Person B
2. A fight ensues, no witnesses can verify who landed the first blow
3. Person A shoots and kills Person B, despite the fact that Person A could have defended himself without resorting to killing Person B
4. No legal repercussions against Person A

then something is very wrong, likely with the self defense laws. I don't fault GZ for defending himself in a fight. I fault GZ for shooting and killing TM when he could have defended himself without killing him.

[_cinepro]

Zimmerman called in reports to the nonemergency 911 number hundreds of times over the course of several years.

CFR on "hundreds".

Dailybeast says 46:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... e-log.html

Along with the audio recordings of six calls to Sanford police that George Zimmerman made in the weeks before the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, the Sanford Police Department has posted reports of 46 911 and nonemergency calls it says Zimmerman made between August 2004 and Martin’s shooting.

[_beastie]

Zimmerman called in reports to the nonemergency 911 number hundreds of times over the course of several years.

CFR on "hundreds".

Dailybeast says 46:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... e-log.html

Along with the audio recordings of six calls to Sanford police that George Zimmerman made in the weeks before the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, the Sanford Police Department has posted reports of 46 911 and nonemergency calls it says Zimmerman made between August 2004 and Martin’s shooting.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... story.html

I admit I didn't count them all, but there are 47 pages of documented calls.

[_Bazooka]

beastie, given that Zimmerman has been acquitted, do you feel that is a failing of some sort? The jurors?

I don't fault the jurors. Everyone could tell the defense was better. The defense successfully put Trayvon on trial, and the prosecution didn't adequately deal with that. There were other things that the prosecutor let slide, in my opinion. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I think they should have built the case for manslaughter, and they almost solely focused on murder.

I fault the laws of Florida. If their laws allow the following to take place:

1. Person A acts provocatively towards Person B
2. A fight ensues, no witnesses can verify who landed the first blow
3. Person A shoots and kills Person B, despite the fact that Person A could have defended himself without resorting to killing Person B
4. No legal repercussions against Person A

then something is very wrong, likely with the self defense laws. I don't fault GZ for defending himself in a fight. I fault GZ for shooting and killing TM when he could have defended himself without killing him.

How could point 3 be established if there were no witnesses?
And the reality is that nobody but GZ is in a position to decideif he used excessive force or indeed wether in fact his own life was truly in danger.

[_beastie]

How could point 3 be established if there were no witnesses?
And the reality is that nobody but GZ is in a position to decideif he used excessive force or indeed wether in fact his own life was truly in danger.

There IS evidence he could have defended himself. He spent a year training three times a week in MMA, for heaven's sake, and outweighed TM by fifty pounds.

I just can't take seriously the claim that TM was such a monstrous opponent that GZ was defenseless without a gun. People usually walk away from fistfights.