Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt - NYT

[_BartBurk]

So Joseph Smith's polyandry was bad. How much bad behavior does he have to exhibit before it is reasonable to conclude he was not a prophet?

We all have to make that call. But there may be a lot of people who see what they think is good in modern Mormonism and are willing to let the good outweigh the bad. There is an old saying, "God writes straight with crooked lines." I think that is especially true with Mormonism. There is a lemon that can be turned into lemonade and that is the Holy Spirit at work within Mormonism. God is working through flawed humans to bring about His work, and I'm sure many active Mormons can see His hand in Mormonism in spite of the mistakes of the past. As I look at various churches it is easier for me to see God at work in Mormonism than it is for me to see it in liberal Protestantism for example.

[_Equality]

We all have to make that call. But there may be a lot of people who see what they think is good in modern Mormonism and are willing to let the good outweigh the bad. There is an old saying, "God writes straight with crooked lines." I think that is especially true with Mormonism. There is a lemon that can be turned into lemonade and that is the Holy Spirit at work within Mormonism. God is working through flawed humans to bring about His work, and I'm sure many active Mormons can see His hand in Mormonism in spite of the mistakes of the past. As I look at various churches it is easier for me to see God at work in Mormonism than it is for me to see it in liberal Protestantism for example.

I sort of agree with this. At least the part about how a lot of people would prefer to judge Mormonism based on what it is doing today rather than what Joseph Smith or Brigham Young may have said or done. I actually did that myself. I knew about many of the church's historical problems, but joined the church anyway and was faithful and active for the better part of 18 years. But what I found most troubling about the church when I began re-examining it in 2005 (and still find most troubling about it now) was the lack of honesty and integrity among its leaders; the male-dominated authoritarian corporate model that sucked the lifeblood out of the gospel that Joseph Smith either invented or restored (take your pick); the anti-science, anti-curiosity, anti-education attitude perpetuated by those in church leadership; the unhealthy attitudes toward sex and the human body; the church's institutionalized sexism; and the church's increasingly cozy relationship with the religious right in America, as expressed in the Prop H8 campaign and the church's tacit support of Mitt Romney's candidacy. Add to that the creepy Orwellianism that characterizes the church's correlation and PR machines combined with the complete lack of any revelation on matters that matter to people today from the so-called living Prophet, and, well, Mormonism just ain't much use to me and my family. The bad far outweighs the good in my estimation, even if we put all the problems with the faith's foundational truth claims up on the proverbial shelf or under the proverbial rug. Is there good in Mormonism? Sure. But there is no good value or teaching or practice found in Mormonism that is unique to the religion.

There are some people for whom Mormonism still "works" even after they come to the realization that "the church is not true." But for most, I suspect that the only reason they keep going through the drudgery of life as a Mormon, dealing with all the rules and all the meetings and all the other BS, is because they think it really is true with a capital T--they actually believe that there were Nephites, that there were gold plates inscribed with Reformed Egyptian, that Jaredites really sailed in real boats that were tight like a dish, Elohim and Jesus and Moroni and Elijah and John the Baptist and Peter and James and John actually appeared and spoke with Joseph Smith face to face, the Mississippi froze for the Mormons to cross, Jesus appears to Mormon prophets today telling them where to send each and every missionary, etc. For most, when literal belief falls by the wayside, and they are left to decide whether the current state of church goodness is enough to justify all of their time, treasure, and talents, well, they find the church rather lacking in the "goodness" department.

[_Quasimodo]

You can believe in an inspired restoration without accepting Joseph Smith's understanding of that restoration as perfect.

But why would you? There are many religions that one could choose to believe. Why believe one the was made up by a known liar?

I would say it would be possible to accept the Restoration simply because you believe the LDS Church is the vehicle God is using to carry out His plans.

Why would God use Joseph to carry out his plans? Why even go there? He lied about so many things. Why would anyone believe he told the truth about this? It's a losing proposition.

If Joseph Smith carried out Doctrine and Covenants 132 incorrectly it doesn't negate the possibility that Doctrine and Covenants 132 is true. If Brigham Young incorrectly denied blacks the priesthood, it doesn't mean the colonizing of the West was uninspired and not directed by God. If one looks at the good accomplished and realizes the bad is simply the failure of imperfect men, the Restoration can still have validity.

It's obvious that the Book of Mormon is not true for very many reasons. If it's important for you to believe it is, then that's fine. You have to realize, though, that most of the world finds it and Joseph Smith extremely flawed and unbelievable.

[_RayAgostini]

It's the details of the polygamy, such as the proposals to his handmaidens (example: Lucy Walker), or the marriages to already married women that brother people. Not simply that Joseph was a polygamist.
Jesus people, is it really so damn hard to have empathy for doubters that you will strain at anything to dismiss them?

My first encounter with the claims was c.1979, Fawn Brodie, No Man, a year after my mission.

From 1985 - 2000, I read all of the "noteworthy" books on polygamy I could find (list is too long for me to write out here now).

I have empathy with doubt and even disbelief, not with ridicule, sarcasm and dogmatism (which is what I mostly find here) when it comes to such matters.*

Plural Marriage was Essential for Exaltation.


*I see similar problems with Islam/Muhammad, but that hasn't stopped it reaching nearly 2 billion adherents today, so maybe religion/worship is far more complex than the simple true/fraud dichotomy? Mattsson's "shocking discoveries" are quite unremarkable to me now, since I began discovering the same things more than 30 years ago. I really don't know what's so special about this, other than that he's a former "area authority". The "appeal to authority" argument reversed, apparently.

Time now for more important things, but do have a good day.

[_SteelHead]

While children are starving by the drove in Africa..... I see god's hand no where. Especially not in religion. Doubly especially not in a religion that spends billions on shopping malls.

[_Quasimodo]

I have empathy with doubt and even disbelief, not with ridicule, sarcasm and dogmatism (which is what I mostly find here) when it comes to such matters.*

It might be good to realize, Ray, that the ridicule, sarcasm and dogmatism is usually only a reaction to the ridicule, sarcasm and dogmatism expressed by the TBMs here towards anyone that dares to question their beliefs.

I agree that some of the critics here can get carried away, but the TBMs are usually the most offensive.

[_Tobin]

It's the details of the polygamy, such as the proposals to his handmaidens (example: Lucy Walker), or the marriages to already married women that brother people. Not simply that Joseph was a polygamist.
Jesus people, is it really so damn hard to have empathy for doubters that you will strain at anything to dismiss them?

My first encounter with the claims was c.1979, Fawn Brodie, No Man, a year after my mission.

From 1985 - 2000, I read all of the "noteworthy" books on polygamy I could find (list is too long for me to write out here now).

I have empathy with doubt and even disbelief, not with ridicule, sarcasm and dogmatism (which is what I mostly find here) when it comes to such matters.*

Plural Marriage was Essential for Exaltation.


*I see similar problems with Islam/Muhammad, but that hasn't stopped it reaching nearly 2 billion adherents today, so maybe religion/worship is far more complex than the simple true/fraud dichotomy? Mattsson's "shocking discoveries" are quite unremarkable to me now, since I began discovering the same things more than 30 years ago. I really don't know what's so special about this, other than that he's a former "area authority". The "appeal to authority" argument reversed, apparently.

Time now for more important things, but do have a good day.

Ray, I really don't think Joseph Smith and polygamy should play an important part in what followers of Mormonism determine is true about the gospel and whether it is from God. God is quite capable of providing those answers himself. However, I see little to no good coming from the polygamy commandment, at least as lived by Mormon leaders. So did they fail to see the good purpose behind it? I can think of two good reasons for polygamy:

1) Polygamy is so women who have not had an opportunity to marry can have and raise children.
2) Polygamy is so older women who's spouse has died will be taken care of.

But the LDS Church leadership for the most part did not conduct themselves like this. Is that why the LDS Church was almost destroyed by the US Government and God allowed it? I think most definitely. So this was a sin on their part. They failed to really see and follow the intent of God's purpose for such a commandment. And if that is true, that raises even more questions about the infallibility of the leadership of the LDS Church and how they've been conducting themselves.

[_MsJack]

I was asking some questions of an LDS historian while I was a student at BYU (I'm not going to give you the name, but he's pretty well published in the field). I forget how we got into the story, but he had said something in passing over the dinner table about Joseph Smith and polygamy. He said that his mother-in-law (devout life-long member of the church) had practically screamed at him, "You take that back! Joseph Smith had NOTHING to do with polygamy, that was Brigham Young!"

It's really not all that uncommon.

[_Kishkumen]

This tongue-in-cheek article at Patheos summed up my own feelings (along with providing a good chuckle). Good skeptical writing:

Skeptical about the NYT’s Mormon skeptic piece

Yeah, I have to say that I was skeptical of the author's skepticism. He seems to assume that knowledge of church history will be uniform throughout the world (it isn't), with equal access to all materials and publications in every country (there is not). So the fact that Bushman's Smith biography is published by Deseret says very little about the weekly education of the members in every country. Were it the case that there was some kind of formal training for LDS leaders requiring them to read a certain bibliography of church historical materials (there is not), we might share this author's skepticism. As things stand, however, his bemusement is based on ignorance.

I also thought the author missed the boat on the leadership structure. It is not at all unusual to view a Mormon seventy as the rough equivalent of a Catholic cardinal. Mattsson was a seventy before he started to doubt the LDS Church openly. We can quibble about some of the details, but the basic point that a seventy's very public disillusionment is noteworthy is, in my view, unexceptionable.

I find your approbation for the ignorant skepticism of this author odd.

The real howlers, however, are to be found in the apologetic quotes in the comments.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

I was asking some questions of an LDS historian while I was a student at BYU (I'm not going to give you the name, but he's pretty well published in the field). I forget how we got into the story, but he had said something in passing over the dinner table about Joseph Smith and polygamy. He said that his mother-in-law (devout life-long member of the church) had practically screamed at him, "You take that back! Joseph Smith had NOTHING to do with polygamy, that was Brigham Young!"

It's really not all that uncommon.

I concur.

My ex-wife's grandmother had never heard of Joe's cheating ways under the guise of polygamy.

She was 88 at the time, born and raised in rural Mormon Utah.

Her words were, "I always knew that Brigham was a scoundrel, but Joseph Smith?? This changes the way I view him.

My ex-wife was in the same boat. "Being raised as a Mormon girl, Joseph Smith was placed upon a pedestal as the kind of man that we should strive for. Now I find out that he was sneaking around his wife's back AND then finally in D&C 132 he threatens his beloved wife with DEATH if she does not accept his cheating ways!"

It was the most troubling aspect that ultimately lead to her exit.